Want to Cut Cable- Antenna confusion

[Paul_Aris]

Ok, I want to cut the cable and use a combination of antenna for local channels and Hulu or netflix for online content with my smart tv. My confusion is around directional or non directional antennas. So looks like most of my channels are coming from 2 different directions. NE or SE. Can a directional be aimed in between (east and pull from both north and south east)? Would I need a rotor. Or are the majority of the good channels close enough that I could pull them in clear with a omni directional antenna. I know I need an antenna that will get low bands and the higher bands. Which antenna would work well for this area?

By the way I plan to install on a mast above my roof.

Here is my area in the 49456 area coe.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c691b827b494

[GroundUrMast]

I'd avoid an omnidirectional design. They generally offer poor performance when multipath conditions are present. If you are in an urban or developed suburban area, multipath can be a significant problem.

I'd go after the mix of strong, medium and weak signals that lie generally in the direction of 130°. An Antennacraft HBU-44 or HBU-55, or the Winegard HD7698P would be my suggestion.

If you have more than one TV to connect, a rotator can be a source of frustration for the viewers who at at the mercy of the person with the rotator control.

[teleview]

+=>

A Simple Reception Situation.

The Current Plus Pending Applications Included Digital Tv Station Radar Plot and Channels List Tv Stations to the , South East and North East.

The main group of Tv stations is to the South East , some other Tv stations are to the North East.

Above the Peak of the Roof in such a manner that reception is not , obstructed , impeded , blocked , by the roof and building in the directions of , South East and North East.

Aim a , www.antennacraft.net , HBU44 antenna at about 128 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna , do not trust a cell phone compass.

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Antenna system amplifier will most likely not be required for 1 or 2 Tv's connected.

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

Buy the HFS-2D splitter at , www.hollandelectronics.com , or , www.amazon.com

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How many Tv's will be connected??

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Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

www.ronard.com/909911.html
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

www.ronard.com/34424560.html
Use the , ronard(4560) , eave antenna mount.

www.ronard.com,ychim.html
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , www.ronard.com

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With the HBU44 antenna aimed to the , South East receiving the South East Group of Tv stations.

The Strong Signal Strength Tv Statins to the , North East.

Will Yes also be receive with No Antenna Rotation.

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Antenna rotators Are Not channel surfing friendly , must wait for antenna to rotate.

Antenna rotation is not recording friendly.

And their -Will Be Domestic Situations- about the direction the antenna is aimed.

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As always , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , have a Negative Effect on Broadcast Tv Reception and so do buildings and other obstructions in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

Some and not all Negative Effects are.

Absorbing and Blocking Reception.

Multi-Path Reflecting Tv Signals Bouncing All Around.

The Best Practice for Reliable Reception is to install the antenna at a location that has the least amount to no amount of obstructions of any type or kind in the directions of reception including your own roof and building.

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The Tv/s Must Channel Scan for the , ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Ststions/Channels , often named the ~ Antenna Channels ~ ATSC Channels ~ DTV Channels ~ Air Channels ~ in the Tv Setup Menu because the Tv transmissions travel through Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna.

Some digital tv 's will Automatic channel scan for cable tv channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select and channel scan for ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Channels.

[Paul_Aris]

Do you think because of the close proximity I will be able to pick up WZZM 13 with they antenna's you suggested pointed around 130? If not should a smaller sub antenna be installed on the mast to point the direction of 13?

Also how much signal loss is there with longer cables. I would need to run down the side of the house to the basement. to a splitter. Then run across the basement to my cable splitter and then part way back across and up to the living room tv. The family room tv is close to the first splitter.

[ADTech]

Please go back and do an exact address plot. A zip-code level analysis is usually too prone to variations for it to be reliable.

RG6 and RG6QS coaxial cable typically exhibits 5.5-6 dB insertion loss at 700 MHZ which is the worst case for antenna signals. I usually use a factor of 1 dB per 17 feet and it's plenty close enough. You can pick 15 or 20 feet/db for off-the-cuff estimates and it will usually be close enough. Keep in mind that VHF attenuates much less per unit of cable length so, in the case of very long cable runs, the tilt of the signals (insertion loss of low frequencies vs insertion loss of high frequencies) can become skewed and might require some equalization.

Once more a more accurate analysis is available, estimate the length of your individual cable runs, identify the splitters (2 port, 4 port, etc), and then you can estimate whether any amplification will be required to improve noise margin and to overcome downstream distribution losses.

[GroundUrMast]

I agree with ADTech, that you'll be doing yourself a favor if you verify that the signal conditions at your actual location.

If the conditions don't change significantly, then I'd try just one antenna. If it turns out that the WZZM signal can't be received reliably after fine tuning the aim point, and WOTV is not an acceptable alternative for an ABC affiliate, then yes, a second antenna can be added. Let's not be too worried about that yet.

[Paul_Aris]

Please go back and do an exact address plot. A zip-code level analysis is usually too prone to variations for it to be reliable.

RG6 and RG6QS coaxial cable typically exhibits 5.5-6 dB insertion loss at 700 MHZ which is the worst case for antenna signals. I usually use a factor of 1 dB per 17 feet and it's plenty close enough. You can pick 15 or 20 feet/db for off-the-cuff estimates and it will usually be close enough. Keep in mind that VHF attenuates much less per unit of cable length so, in the case of very long cable runs, the tilt of the signals (insertion loss of low frequencies vs insertion loss of high frequencies) can become skewed and might require some equalization.

Once more a more accurate analysis is available, estimate the length of your individual cable runs, identify the splitters (2 port, 4 port, etc), and then you can estimate whether any amplification will be required to improve noise margin and to overcome downstream distribution losses.


I thought I did that. It must have only taken my zip. New plot but very similar.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c6c7be9d62b6

[GroundUrMast]

I'd try the single antenna solution, it's less expensive and likely to produce good results. We can deal with an alternate two antenna solution if the need is proven.

[teleview]

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Cable delivered services such as and not limited to , cable Tv service , cable Internet service , cable phone service , Can Not Be Connected to any coaxes that are used for the antenna and antenna system.

YES coax that was used for the cable delivered service can be used for the antenna system.

However any cable delivered service Must Be on a Separate Coax that is not connected to the antenna and antenna system coaxes.

[Paul_Aris]

+=>

Cable delivered services such as and not limited to , cable Tv service , cable Internet service , cable phone service , Can Not Be Connected to any coaxes that are used for the antenna and antenna system.

YES coax that was used for the cable delivered service can be used for the antenna system.

However any cable delivered service Must Be on a Separate Coax that is not connected to the antenna and antenna system coaxes.

Yes, I would still have cable internet so I would want to split where it comes into the house and to each tv. Is a screw in splice ok to add on to cable length? Another thing I noticed the antennas suggested don't pick up channels below 7. I see CBS is broacasted on 3 in my area. Is this a problem?

[tomfoolery]

Another thing I noticed the antennas suggested don't pick up channels below 7. I see CBS is broacasted on 3 in my area. Is this a problem?
WWMT CBS is broadcast on real channel 8, which is high-band VHF. It will show on the screen as virtual channel 3.1 with CW network on 3.2. Since the digital switchover, many if not most stations use UHF or high-VHF broadcast frequencies while retaining the 'virtual' channel number that corresponded to the actual broadcast channel from the analog days, presumably so nobody got confused. And so they didn't have to change station letterhead. :D

Use the 'Real' column in the TVFool report for channel requirements for antenna selection.

[GroundUrMast]

If you need to add some length to an existing cable, the F-81 'barrel' connector can be used to join the new section of cable to the existing.

Example: http://www.cableandwireshop.com/holland_g-f811_f-81_barrel_connector.html

As I scan down the list of real channels on your TV Fool report, WGVK (real CH-5) is the fist Low-VHF signal that I come to. It's quite weak, but if you want to try to receive it you could go attempt to with a Winegard HD7084P or Antennacraft HD1850.

I would caution against high expectations, there is more noise/interference present in the low band.

[teleview]

>=+

The columns in the channel list show the show the

Real Channel that is Transmitted and Received.

And shows the (virt) virtual number.

The radar plot shows the Real channel that is transmitted and received.

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When changing from Analog to Digital transmission.

Many Tv stations have changed to a New channel that is transmitted and received but have kept and display the old channel number.

That old number is now a (virt) virtual number.

And the old number is a (virt) virtual number even if the Tv station stayed on the same channel when changing from Analog to Digital.

The (virt) virtual number is not a Real Channel evenif the virtual number is the same as the Real Channel that is transmitted and received.

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WHVK-DT , Real VHF low band channel 5 , virtual number (52.1) , PBS .

WGUV-Tv , Real VHF high band channel 11 , virtual number (35.1) , PBS .

Are the Same PBS.

www.en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGVU-TV

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The Real Channels are what a Tv antenna receives.


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The Current Tv Channels that are being transmitted and received in the , USA , Canada , Mexico , are.

VHF low band channels 2 thru 6.

VHF high band channels 7 thru 13.

UHF band channels 14 thru 51.

[Tower Guy]

I'd try the single antenna solution, it's less expensive and likely to produce good results. We can deal with an alternate two antenna solution if the need is proven.

That's good advice.

Yet to add WZZM is pretty easy. Get this channel 13 Jointenna for $3.99 before they run out. http://www.channelmasterstore.com/JOIN_TENNA_CM_0583_p/cm-0583.htm
Then aim a Y5-7-13 at WZZM and couple it to the 7-51 antenna.

[teleview]

WZZM and the other strong signal strength Tv stations that are to the North East will be received by the antenna that is aimed to the South East.

[Tower Guy]

I believe that mis-aimed antennas are not as predictable as a properly aimed antenna. The additional cost of the Jointenna and the Y5-7-13 is not great. Note that Michigan has a great antenna supplier; Solid Signal. Summit Source is not far away in Indiana.

[Paul_Aris]

Good advice. I think I would start out with single HBU-44 pointed south east. Not worried about the low channel. The only one I was concerned about was CBS and now I know that is really on 8. Also I know to keep internet off the splitters and cables. I probalby wouldn't have mixed those anyway. Cable/internet comes in the opposite end of the house.

I would use a gable mount such as the CM9030 Adjustable Eave Mount on a 10-15' mast. I already had one of these in this location years ago but because of cable I removed it and brought it to my cabin and installed. It was a two VHF set-up older style. Works good at the cabin but I don't get one channel NBC that I should because it does not have the UHF set-up. But hey it was free and I can switch out to a different antenna later if it bothers me enough.

Now I just need to weigh my options. My cable and internet promos are over and just jumped to $130 or higher a month. So I am thinking of switching back to Charter to get the high speed 30 MBPS internet. This is important for me because we have an at home online business. However it is $40 per month. Still a lot cheaper than the $130 or more I pay now to have both TV and internet. I can add Charter select TV which is 125 channels with a lot of those in HD. It would bring the total to $104 per month with the hd box for both tv's.

Or I could buy the antenna mount and needed supplies for around $150 and then add netflix, hulu or amazon prime for around $8 per month. My monthly expenditures would be around $48 per month for internet, local channels and internet tv service. So really only $52 month cost difference to not have the antenna and stick with cable but there would be a $30 installation charge every year when i would have to switch because my rates go up. What to do?

[GroundUrMast]

$52 X 12 = $624

Or,

$52 per month invested in a balanced growth fund averaging 8% per year will grow to over $18,000 in 15 years.

I think most of us here tend toward telling the cable company to take a hike. :p

[Paul_Aris]

Well I ended up ordering the antenna and the mount. Once I get everything connected and I am cutting the cord and changing internet providers back to high speed charter 30MBPS. I figure I can always go back to cable some day if I need to but most of the content that is on really ins't that important or good. Entertaining? maybe, but gets old quick. I would rather go out for dinner and or drinks one more time a month than pay for cable. I feel I can get decent enough content with the antenna and netflix.

I will let you know how your suggestions work out.

[Paul_Aris]

Weird. I installed the hbu44 on a 10 foot mast above my roof and pointed it magnetic 128 and tried 138 degrees. I get wzzm 13 strong but no nbc or cbs. I get pbs 35 1-4 and 54 1-3. What went wrong? Oh and I don't get fox 17 either. By the way the RG6 comes straight down the mast and almost straight down the house to a ground connector and then into the house. Goes in about a foot and then I have a splitter. From there about 4-6 feet to my cable wall plate. From there another cable runs it to the tv. All total maybe 50 feet of RG6 from antenna to TV 1. Just for kicks I ran all the way to the other TV which is a longer route than I need but I used existing cable that was hung from where the cable splitter is. I didn't really see any worse signal on that TV.

After removing the one splitter and inserting a barrel connector I know get 3 programmed but its in and out and never clear. 8 is still nothing and 17 slightly worse than 3. I am wondering if I need a antenna amplifier or if I should have purchased the HBU 55. Bummer.

[teleview]

>+=

Make sure the UHF Bowtie Loop Ends are connected to the bolt studs where the the matching transformer (balun) connects , if the UHF loops are not connected , reception of the UHF channels will not be good.

Make sure the feed wires that connect the VHF metal reception elements are connected correctly , so that the signal received by the metal reception elements can flow to the connections where the UHF Bowtie and matching transformer connect.

www.antennacraft.net/Manuals/HBU_web_manual.pdf

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Also to Prove Reception , connect a NEW Matching Transformer
to the antenna.

And also connect a NEW Continues Length of RG-6 Coax to the NEW Matching Transformer.

And Run the NEW Continues Length of RG-6 Coax through a open door or window dirrect to 1 Tv.

No splitters , No couplers , No etc. .

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Digital Tuners can develop -Digital Glitches- that are not cleared out with simple channel scans.

To clear tuner do Double Rescan.

www.wchstv.com/DoubleReScanAlert.pdf

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Also did you follow directions about install the antenna at a location avoids obstructions in the direction paths of reception.

Avoiding obstructions of reception is Actualy Important.

[Paul_Aris]

Everything is connected per the instructions. The only thing that seems weird is where the transformer hangs from strain relief the cable kind of hangs against the V portion of the antenna. Not sure how to route the RG6 cable in the area. At one point I had it tied up to the main boom to route it away from the V and over toward the mast. Thought that may be a problem so I cut the zip tie. No obstructions our trees in the path the antenna is pointing until 100 feet or more.

I am getting 3 now after rescan. 17 is very bad and nothing on 8 yet.

[teleview]

+=>

The Tv's Must Channel Scan for the , ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels , often named the ~ Antenna Channels ~ ATSC Channels ~ DTV Channels ~ Air Channel ~ in the Tv Setup Menu because the the Tv transmissions travel through the Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna,

Some Digital Tv,s will Automatic channel scan for cable channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable channels.

Do Not channel scan for only Analog Tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select and channel scan for ATSC- Digital Broadcast Tv Channels.

[Paul_Aris]

+=>

The Tv's Must Channel Scan for the , ATSC-Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels , often named the ~ Antenna Channels ~ ATSC Channels ~ DTV Channels ~ Air Channel ~ in the Tv Setup Menu because the the Tv transmissions travel through the Air from the transmitting antenna to the receiving antenna,

Some Digital Tv,s will Automatic channel scan for cable channels.

DO NOT channel scan for cable channels.

Do Not channel scan for only Analog Tv channels.

Go into the Tv Setup Menu and select and channel scan for ATSC- Digital Broadcast Tv Channels.

Yes, my Insignia only give three choices: 1. Antenna, 2. Cable, 3. Cable Satalite. Everytime I sue Antenna and it shows how many digital and how many analog signals it finds. Scanned and rescanned many times including a double scan.

My LG Smart TV does Antenna first then scans for cable, and then satalite. I get about the same results on both TVs. but I mainly working with the Insignia because it is closest to the antenna.

[Paul_Aris]

I also ran a single cable with no splitter or anything down and through a window directly to the TV and it didn't get any better. I will pick up a new transformer and try that. I still don't understand why I am having such a hard time with 8 woodTV. CBS 3 I had but on my last scan that dropped out. Fox 17 is in and out and basically useless.

[teleview]

+=>

The second Tvfool report , the Current Pluss Pending Applications Included Digital Tv Stations Channel List , shows that 15 Tv stations down the Channel List are Strong to Moderate Signal Strengths and are , LOS=Line Of Sight.

LOS is the best type or reception , no hills/mountains obstructing reception.

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Local obstructions such as and not limited to , trees and tree leaves , plants and plant leaves , roofs and buildings and other obstructions are blocking and reflecting Tv signals bouncing all around.

To improve reception move the antenna up and down and test different locations for reception.

[Paul_Aris]

Ok, I got it figured out. I pulled the antenna back down today to change the transformer and run a short cable to a small HD TV I forgot I had that I could haul up to the roof with me. One thing I read in the directions that I wanted to check was the small cross over wires where supposed to be separated by 1/2" or more and not touching. They are also not supposed to tough the main boom. I made sure they were not touching the main boom when I installed it. In effort to make sure they did not I pulled a few up them up away from the boom. In the process i made the crossover wire themselves touch each other. I guess I missed that part of the instructions when I 1st installed it.

So when I brought the mast and antenna down to the roof level that is the 1st thing I checked. And sure enough 3 sets of them were touching each other. Put it back up and did a channel scan with the small dtv I had on the rough with me directly with a 25' cable. I had CBS 3.1-3.1 and NBC 8.1 8.2 8.2, 13 WZZM and fox 17 plus all the channels I had before. Original transformer is fine.

So then I disconnected and reconnected the longer cable that was going to my closet tv in the family room. Still had all the channels but 17 began to drop in and out. Then I tried a RCA digital preamplifier that I got at menards. 17 came in great with that. Of course I had to rescan and lost all the major local channels such as 13, 3 and and picked up 6 and a bunch of other weird ones. I figured it was boosting the UHF side really well and and completely losing my VHF. So I uninstalled.

So my new question is this. Seeing how on the roof with short 25' cable I was getting all the channels I wanted clear including 17 with no amp. Now with my longer 50" cable to tv 1. with one splitter and a a wall plate and TV 2 is way longer run than I needs to be ( I can clean that up later) I still get everything I want but 17. Does this mean a Distribution Amplifier strengthen the signal up enough to get 17?

Thanks

[Paul_Aris]

Please go back and do an exact address plot. A zip-code level analysis is usually too prone to variations for it to be reliable.

RG6 and RG6QS coaxial cable typically exhibits 5.5-6 dB insertion loss at 700 MHZ which is the worst case for antenna signals. I usually use a factor of 1 dB per 17 feet and it's plenty close enough. You can pick 15 or 20 feet/db for off-the-cuff estimates and it will usually be close enough. Keep in mind that VHF attenuates much less per unit of cable length so, in the case of very long cable runs, the tilt of the signals (insertion loss of low frequencies vs insertion loss of high frequencies) can become skewed and might require some equalization.

Once more a more accurate analysis is available, estimate the length of your individual cable runs, identify the splitters (2 port, 4 port, etc), and then you can estimate whether any amplification will be required to improve noise margin and to overcome downstream distribution losses.

Still wondering what distribution amplifier I should try to improve WXMI 17. I per my findings one post above. I do get this channel on the closet tv on good days. It goes in and out.

[GroundUrMast]

The Channel Master CM-3410 is quite tolerant of strong signals and has decent noise performance.

If there's not power handy at the mounting location, you can use a run of RG-6 to extend the power... Or optionally, insert power using the PCT-MPI-1G.

[teleview]

+>

WXMI , Real UHF channel 19 , (virt) virtual number (17.1) FOX .

Is Strong Signal Strength , 42.8 NM(dB).

Is LOS Line Of Sight Reception.

Is 41.0 miles .

Should be no problem with reception even with 4 Tv's connected and No type or kind of amplifier.

Keep the following in mind.

All as in All , coax , connectors , couplers , splitters , and etc. , is and are suspect of being Defective.

Using amplifiers to overcome defective componets will cause more problems.

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Also a antenna can be in a low signal or dead spot , try moving the antenna up or down and change location of antenna.

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Also the RCA TVPRAMP1R preamp can operate in 2 different modes.

Separate UHF / VHF antennas connected.

And 1 combined UHF/VHF antenna connected.

[Paul_Aris]

I know this is an older thread but I have been living with so so reception and if it is going to storm outside the reception gets worse. I believe my major issue could be the woods that is behind our house and our neighbor houses. I would say the woods starts about 75 feet away from the antenna. The antenna points at the woods.

Right now I have a HBU-44 pointed south east. I have it on a 10 foot mast on a gable eve mount. Mast and coax is both grounded before entering the house. The signal is split right after it enters the house with a Channel Master CM 3412 2-Port Ultra Mini Distribution Amplifier. I am running 2 HD tvs.

So 13 and 8 35 (pbs) are typically really good. 3 can be in and out but pretty solid on the best days. 17 (fox) is only useful on the very best days. 17 should be solid all the time.

Tell me if I am on the right track but I think I need to try relocating the antenna left a few inches to see if it helps. Also may even try to lower it just to see if reception improves. I really can't go any higher with out a tower. This may be somewhat difficult seeing how it is an gable eve mount.