Antenna Recommendation setup rural Fort Worth, TX

[HDTV-OTA]

I’m new to the HDTV antenna subject. For the past several weeks, I have been reading some excellent posts and information on the forums from some very dedicated, knowledgeable and helpful members. I’ve been reading about the Channel Master 4228, Gray-Hoverman variations, XG-91, Super G-1483, Yagi style, Channel Master 4251 Parabolic 7ft(discontinued in 2000), CM double boom 3617B, Finco 400-A antennas(aka "bed spring), Mclapp’s M4 (2) 10” whisker 4 bays stacked vertically, Wade Delhi 8' dish - about $2,500, and HD Stacker, and others. I tried the Mohu Leaf Ultimate, but received zero channels in this area. I need some help with finding the best antennas for my location. Below is my TVFool search location. Given the report, I’m almost located in the middle of the Fort Worth antenna farm and the Witchita Falls antenna farm. The Fort Worth antenna farm(32 channels) is between 65-70 miles away. I like the Antenna Direct DB8 (8 Bay Bowtie) setup. I’m open to any suggestions. Thanks in advance for your help.
1. Would 1 DB8 be sufficient?
2. Would 1 DB8 with an amplifier be sufficient? If so, what amp?
3. Would Stacking 2 DB8’s?
4. Would stacking 2 DB8’s with an amp? If so, what amp? Splitters/Combiners?
5. Receive VHF-Lo and VHF-Hi channels?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b94d6c4425aa5

[GroundUrMast]

First, I'd investigate the signal opportunities at higher mounting heights.

If your first TVFR link is representative of what's available at heights 10' to 20' higher, then I'd opt for the combination of an Antennas Direct DB8E or 91XG + Antennacraft Y10713 + RCA TVPRAMP1R. Aim toward 135-140° (compass).

This is a case where a tower might make more improvement than an antenna choice.

[teleview]

+=>
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An interesting Tvfool report.

Many Digital Broadcast Tv Stations/Channels.

All a Uniformly Very Low Signal Strength , have 2 Edge Path reception path obstructions=Hills and The Tv stations are 60 + miles away.

The tvfool report is 20 feet above ground.

To see if the signal strengths improve with higher antenna heights.

Do not delete the 20 feet Tvfool report.

And make and post 2 more Tvfool reports , 40 and 60 feet antenna heights above ground.

[HDTV-OTA]

@ Teleview, included the 40ft and 60ft report. Thanks for reminding me about the increased elevation. Thanks

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b945d55449cb8

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d5b9441a0d6eaa7

[HDTV-OTA]

@ GroundUrMast. Excellent antenna setup recommendation. It gets very windy here occasionally, was wondering if the DB8 has more wind load that a Yagi style antenna. Today, I going to try to buy a 50ft telescoping antenna mast which may extend to about 43ft.

[GroundUrMast]

I've not seen any published spec on wind-loading... Given that I own a 91XG and a DB4E, my semi-educated guesstimate is that the DB8E would have much less tendency to rotate but otherwise, the two are similar in overall wind loading.

[teleview]

+=>
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The signal strengths do not improve much .

However because the signal strengths are So Weak and so Far Away and have 1 and 2 Edge Path obstructions.

The closer you can get to 40 feet antenna heigth above ground the reception will be improved because the higher antenna height will get the antenna above most close ground clutter.

Keeping in mind the signal strengths are very weak and transmitters are far away with path obstructions.

I recommend install antennas that are designed to receive as much signal as possible.

I recommend install 2 antennas.

A Antennas Direct , DB8e , UHF antenna.

And about 3 feet below the DB8e antenna on the same mast install a.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

Y-10-7-13 VHF antenna.

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Aim both antennas at about 138 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna.

Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the , ronard(911) , 5 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/Tripods%200703/4712.html.
Use the , ronard(4712-50-10) 10 foot tripod antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure around the chimney and use a , ronard(2212) , ronard(2218) , ronard(2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at , http://www.ronard.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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Home Depot and Lowes have 10 foot lengths of , Top Rail , chain link fence Pipe that makes good antenna mast. The price is Low Dollars.



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Install a , http://www.antennacraft.net , 10G221 preamplifier.

Connect the DB8e UHF antenna to the UHF connection of the preamplifier.

Connect the Y10-7-13 VHF antenna to the VHF connection of the preamplifier.

Have the FM radio trap switch in the in/on position.

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For the initial hook up of antennas and Testing and Adjusting for best reception.

Have only 1 Tv connected , I recommend run a continues length of coax from the antenna/preamplifier , through a open door or window direct to 1 tv.

No splitters.

For coax that is outside , use RG-6 Coax that has the Compression type connectors on the ends of the coax , not the crimp type connectors.

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When all is setup and working well.

For 1 Tv connected use No splitter.

For 2 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-2D , 2 way splitter.

For 3 Tv's connected use a , Holland Electronics , HFS-3D , 3 way splitter.

Buy the , HFS-2D and HFS-3D , splitters at , http://www.hollandelectronics.com , or , http://www.amazon.com.

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Here are some places to buy antennas and etc.

http://www.amazon.com.

http://www.antennacraft.com.

http://www.hollandelectronics.com.

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For your consideration and evaluation and money.

Here are , Free Standing , No Guywires , Light Weight , Aluminum , Lay Over Towers.

Do antenna install and adjustments standing on the ground.

http://www.palcoelectronics.com/pe300.aspx

[HDTV-OTA]

RE. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13236 @ Tripelo, Nice antenna towers. Excellent contributions from all the other members.

Need some more help with buying antennas. Attached is my TVFool report. Im approximately 61-70 miles from the DFW(Cedar Hills) antenna farm. Most are 2 edge signals. A few day ago I bought a new CM 4228HD. I was unable to receive any channels - Zero. I tried different locations, directions, and RG6 Coax cables. But, my 4228HD arrived with a slightly bent or misaligned reflector, someone conveniently left a big boot print on the box. Since I didn't receive any signals, I questioned if my CM4228HD is defective.
I have been researching the:
1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
3. XG-91
4. VU936sr
5. VU937SR
6. VIP-307
Will any of these work for my location? Any advice is welcome from any and all members.
Thanks in advance.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c154fe5313e71

[GroundUrMast]

If the signal levels were higher, (NM values in double digits), I'd consider the HD8200P so that you could try chasing down the few L-VHF signals shown on your report. But given the low levels you face, I can't be very optimistic that the 8200 would deliver value over an antenna or combination of antennas that cover just the H-VHF and UHF bands.

If you see something broken on the CM4228, I'd try getting it replaced... If there was only minor bending that you were able to straighten, I would be looking at options that mount the antenna higher...

The DB8E has a slight edge on the other 8-bay panel antennas due to it being engineered to cover a narrower range of the UHF band... But if a serviceable CM4228 sees nothing, the few dB of added gain in the DB8E design is not likely to deliver a miracle.

That still leaves questions about the setup of your tuner and it's ability to deal with weak signal conditions. Did you configure the tuner to scan for over the air signals... Cable mode is often the default and totally incompatible with OTA formatted signals.

[tripelo]

Pretty much agree with GroundUrMast's above comments.

RE. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13236

Need some more help with buying antennas.

1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
3. XG-91
4. VU936sr
5. VU937SR
6. VIP-307

Will any of these work for my location?

There is a good chance that the CM4228HD is a good antenna for your location. This assumes you are mounting the antenna outside.

Unless the feed line is broken or shorted, slight misalignment or bending a CM4228 does not cause great problems.

That you do not receive any channels may mean something is not set up properly or some equipment has failed.

The largest antennas in your list (VU936sr, VU937SR, and VIP-307) are not manufactured anymore and would be hard to find. At present, you probably would not use the low VHF capability of these antennas.

Channels 2 (KSFW) and 4 (KHFW) do not seem to be on the air.

Channel 8 WFAA in many cases can be received via a CM4228HD.

You may have some FM stations nearby that could cause a problem with Channel 8 reception. Unless you were quite close to the FM stations, it is not very likely the FMs would prevent UHF reception. Check with FMfool.

If there are very strong FM stations nearby, you may want to install an FM Trap.

Whenever you do start seeing reception of some stations, you may gain some improvement by using a preamplifier (such as the popular RCA version).

Thanks for the kind words about the antennas and contributions from other members

[HDTV-OTA]

Thanks for the responses. I had planned to mount the 4228 outdoors.

My new 4228 may have been a used or returned item. The box arrived in its original OEM box, box was open, missing 2 hardware wing nuts, top left side reflector was bowed and misaligned, no internal padding, styrofoam or packaging, reflector assembly partially attached to the bowtie assembly, and the overall antenna had scrapes and abrasions on it. Is that normal?

Could the balun be electrically defective? Have you seen defective baluns?
The balun physically looked sound.

@ GroundUrMast: Good point – you questioned about the setup of my tuner and it's ability to deal with weak signal conditions. On the 55” LED TV, I scanned on both the Antenna and Cable mode several times. Also, connected to my HP all-in-one computer’s TV tuner and received zero channels. A couple months ago, I was visiting in central Louisiana and was using a Mohu Leaf ultimate on both the above mentioned TV and CPU to watch TV. Process of elimination.

@Tripelo: Good point – you mentioned I may have some FM stations nearby that could cause a problem with reception. I think I do have, or appears to be, an FM station very nearby, maybe 2 to 3 miles away. TVFool indicates I have 3 stations 10 miles away. Will these FM station interfere with any of my channel reception?

Some folks in this fringe location seem to have older or typical 6’ to 10’ beam yagi’s, but rarely see any larger yagi’s with a 14’ to 16’ beam. I can’t say what channels they may or may not be receiving.

Someone stated on a forum that bigger is better given certain situations.

I’m wondering if stacking 2 4228’s with a RCA preamp, Super G 1483, or a larger yagi such as the 8200U would receive a reasonable amount of channels that I could work with?


Thanks for your help.

[No static at all]

TVFool indicates I have 3 stations 10 miles away. Will these FM station interfere with any of my channel reception?Yes, 91.3 KDKR does raise a concern for channel 8. A Radio Shack FM trap should adequately attenuate the signal if you are at least 5 miles away from the transmitter. You could also try a stronger FM trap, but I have personally found the Radio Shack model to work well above 90 Mhz.

Of course this is if KDKR is really the issue as the 4228 is many times OK on VHF, but unpredictable as it is basically a UHF antenna.

[ADTech]

There are no low-VHF signals in the DFW area so that eliminates #1, 4, 5, & 6 from the list.

All DFW stations except WFAA are UHF, so, a UHF-only antenna like #2 or #3 would be expected to miss that one.

The fact that you got nothing suggests to me, as to others, that something is either defective or something has been overlooked.

The 4228 is, like any 8 bay UHF antenna, VERY directional when dealing with the weakest signals, it must be accurately aimed for maximum effectiveness.

If you have a Menards nearby, they usually stock the RCA preamp. I'd suggest picking one up along with a fresh run of RG6. Install the pre-amp at the antenna and run the new coax directly to the TV set (and power inserter) bypassing any existing cabling and hardware. If you still get nothing, I'd then conclude the antenna's balun is defective.

[rickbb]

This may sound silly, but I had a no channel at all problem yesterday. Our gym at work has a TV and an indoor rabbit ear style antenna. Only picks up 4 really bad local channels.

So, I brought in my first home made DB4, which at home pulled in 29 channels and hung it in the window of the gym. Connected it to the TV, ran the scan and nothing, not a single channel.

What the heck, it got 29 at home. Pulled it apart several times, put the old rabbit ears back on got the same bad 4 channels.

Long story short, when I connected the cable to the TV, I bent the center pin over, :o , no connection at all = no channels at all. Never occurred to me to look at the end of the cable until I had fooled around with it for an hour.

Take your time and look at all the connections, could be something really simple.

[HDTV-OTA]

Re. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=13236&page=5 @ Tripelo - Nice work. Thanks for posting the Signal measurements from several commonly used preamplifiers. It interesting that there is very little difference for the MER measurements. But, a much larger difference UHF output signal strength. That good information many can find useful when buying amps. Given the cost difference of these amps, the RCA seems to be a good choice.

Mr Higgins added useful point that the RCA is immune to strong FM overload and saw no notable difference in reception in his array.

I'm between 61 - 70 miles from the Cedar Hills (DFW) antenna farm, and I'm trying to identify an antenna to reach.

Given you guys knowledge and experience and without giving out any trade secrets - could I ask what antenna(s) setup would you recommend for these UHF & VHF channels?


1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Channel Master 3671 Crossfire
3. XG-91
4. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
5. Stacked CM-4228HD
6. Stacked DB8’s

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

[Pete Higgins]

here is his TV Fool Report:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c154fe5313e71

[Jake V]

The experts will answer, but this is what I would try first:

- For UHF DB-8e with reflectors removed (assuming you are wanting the channels both NW & SE).
- For VHF if you only wanted the VHF-HI I'd say the Y10713. But I don't know what to suggest if you want the VHF-LO.

Is #3 the Antennas Direct 91XG UHF TV Antenna? It's directional, so would not give you a shot at both the channels NW & SE.

[GroundUrMast]

I consider the DB8E to be the current leader of all the consumer grade high performance UHF antennas. (Removal of the reflectors will significantly reduce the performance of the antenna. If you opt to try this, be careful to retain the reflectors so that they can be reinstalled with machine screws & nuts.)

The Y10713 gets that title in the H-VHF class.

Your TVFR suggests that you may see some benefit from dedicating a preamp to each antenna, combine using a UVSJ down-stream of the preamp power insertion blocks. (At best this will only net between 0.5 and 1.0 dB of net noise margin improvement over a system that combines up-stream of a single preamp.)

[HDTV-OTA]

@ Pete, thanks for posting TV Fool report. Is that a picture of your array, Xtreme Signal (HDB8X) stacked with a VHF antenna above and below? Nice. Any thoughts on stacking some 8 Bays antennas for my location?

@Jake V, Thanks for suggestion/response. Many recommend the DB-8 for pri UHF. Sure, as you mentioned, it would be great to receive channels both NW @ SE - almost directly 180 degrees opposite each other. The 91XG…. stated that it will not reach channels both NW & SE? After reading many forum posts and research, I was considering this 91XG to be a very hopeful UHF antenna.

GroundUrMast, Thanks for your the response. The DB8E is a nice antenna and the reflectors serve a purpose, especially for longer directional reception. Question: How would the Y10713 compare to a very large size UHF/VHF yagi with regards to distance, channels received and overall performance?

Thanks again to any and all responses – much appreciated.

[GroundUrMast]

I own a 91XG... Until the DB8E arrived on the market, it was at the top of the list in UHF only performance. It's still a great antenna.

The Y10713 offers all of the performance or more than what you could get in a multi-band combo antenna (for real CH-7 through CH-13). The Y10713 will pick up less FM signal power than an all channel antenna, and can help avoid interference problems if you have a nearby FM transmitter. Separate H-VHF and UHF antennas allow you more flexibility when fine tuning aim.

[Pete Higgins]

HDTV-OTA,

Is that a picture of your array, Xtreme Signal (HDB8X) stacked with a VHF antenna above and below? Yes, that is a picture of the array that I currently have up. It’s only one of many that I’ve tried. The top antenna is an AntennaCraft Y10 7-13 for high VHF, the middle two are Solid Signal HDB8-X’s and the bottom antenna is a Winegard HD-6065 10 Element FM Band (88 – 108 MHz) Antenna. The Y10 7-13 is mounted at the top of the tower to minimize interaction between it and the HD-6065.

I’ve actually tried the Y10 7-13 with a single Antennas Direct 91XG, dual 91XG’s, a single HDB8-X and dual HDB8-X’s. The dual UHF antennas yield 1 – 2 dB additional signal strength (as measured with a Software Defined Radio (SDR) Spectrum Analyzer) with very little measurable change in SNR. The single & dual HDB8-X’s slightly outperformed the single & dual 91XG’s on the channels of interest @ my location.

When propagation is favorable, there isn’t any real advantage to running dual antennas. As near as I can tell, when propagation isn’t favorable having dual antennas only prolongs reception by a few minutes before signal is lost.

Here is a link to my TV Fool report for you to compare with yours:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c150a61252e0c

Most of the shows my wife & I like are on CBS, UHF channel 43 (2.1) @ -112.9 dBm from LA or VHF channel 8 (8.1) @ -96.0 dBm from San Diego. Unfortunately, I don’t get either reliably. Occasionally, I get both, sometimes I get one (usually LA) but not the other and frequently neither come in. Even with dual UHF antennas we can start watching a 1 hour show and part way through it will fade away. Fortunately, we have Time Warner cable ($270.00/mo.) so this only became an issue when they were at odds with each other. I actually have two TV arrays, one I leave pointed at San Diego & one I leave pointed towards LA. During the CBS blackout period, I recorded our shows from both locations and we only ended up missing one 1 hour show.

[tripelo]

Thank you HDTV-OTA for your kind words and comments.

Regarding your inquiry, others have provided good information in this thread.

…could I ask what antenna(s) setup would you recommend for these UHF & VHF channels?

1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Channel Master 3671 Crossfire
3. XG-91
4. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
5. Stacked CM-4228HD
6. Stacked DB8’s…

HDTV-OTA, a few words about each of your proposed antennas:

1. Winegard HD8200P: Has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability. Large, strong and well built. Long elements are subject to ice loading and bird loading. Relatively heavy and high wind load. Would require strong support

2. Channel Master 3671: Has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability, a bit more gain on VHF channels than the HD8200P. Large, strong and well built. Long elements are subject to ice loading and bird loading. Relatively heavy and high wind load. Would require strong support. No longer being manufactured.

Either antenna #1 or #2 will have less UHF gain than the single band antennas listed below.

3. 91XG: UHF. Relatively moderate size, relatively large compared to many UHF. Strong enough. High gain on upper UHF channels. Directional & probably highest F/B ratio currently available, helpful for multipath, co-channels and some adjacent channels.

4. Antennacraft SuperG (stacked): UHF. Large for UHF, fairly light. Not strong, but probably strong enough. Of all currently available antennas, most likely has highest average gain across the UHF band. Directional, has low F/B ratio (not good for co-channel or adjacent at rear).

5. Stacked CM-4228HD: UHF and upper VHF. Have stacked old 4228’s, newer stack may be similar. It is Large for UHF, heavier but not as heavy as original 4228’s. Strong enough. Not sure, but Gain could be comparable but a bit lower than stacked Super G’s. Has relatively high wind load, would require strong support.

6. ______* DB8’s: UHF No experience with original DB8, probably has its highest gain at upper channels (similar to the 91XG). There are two versions. New version is DB8e, has relatively high gain across the UHF band. Well designed incorporating a good combining technique for the individual single bays to maximize gain. Directional with both bays aligned. Fairly unique feature allowing bays to be separately aimed. Strong, well built, with high quality components.

Stacked*

The main things a stack does is provide more gain, more wind load, and more weight. Typically, everything doubles except gain.

Because of losses and suboptimal spacing for some channels, the gain increase is generally less than 3 dB. A horizontal stack increases directivity in azimuth (horizontal) angle, a vertical stack increases directivity in vertical (elevation). Depending on stack orientation there is a penalty with some backlobes and sidelobes being made worse, although some will be improved.

.

[HDTV-OTA]

@ Tripelo. Your welcome.

Assuredly, your correct, there has been some good information posted and many readers may find informative and helpful.

I’ve read a thousand posts over many months and I can’t recall reading about so many modern, popular, and high performance antennas being discussed at once.

Given my location - I wish I knew what the best antenna system was to avoid much trial and error.

Given my fringe location - I’m planning to pull the trigger on a large Yagi that has low VHF, upper VHF and UHF capability, since VHF may be easier to receive. Also, being hopeful to receive some UHF channels. If not, may consider adding a good 8 Bay below it with a preamp to increase UHF reception.

For RG-6 Coaxial cable, what brand is the best?

Coaxial cable, has anyone used RG-11? If so, how much improvement in signal/reception quality?
Where is it sold?

THANKS for greatly detailing the listed antennas – Very helpful.

1. Winegard HD8200P
2. Channel Master 3671 Crossfire
3. XG-91
4. Antennacraft SuperG 1483 (the stacked Hooverman version)
5. Stacked CM-4228HD
6. Stacked DB8’s…

@ GroundUrMast. Thanks for comparing, explaining, and sharing your experience in the performance difference of the 91XG and the DB8E. I think the Y10713 is a great antenna for Hi VHF CH7 – CH13, but I’m concerned, given my location, 65 – 70 miles may exceed its limits. Also, I like the fact that it will be less susceptible to FM Xmitter signal power interference and allows for more flexibility when fine tuning.

@ Pete Higgins. Thanks for explaining the types of antennas in your setup. Thanks for explaining the combination of the Y10-7-13 with single/double 91XG’s, and single/double HDB8-X’s, and what the performance results were. Nice - two arrays, one pointing at SD and the other at LA.

Time Warner cable – given your Forte’ in OTA antenna subject, I thought you cut the cord. Backup Plan?

Thanks again to any all replies, advice, knowledge, and wisdom – much appreciated!

[GroundUrMast]

I'm confident that the Y10713 is your best hope for reliable reception of real CH-8, WFAA (ABC). The HD8200 and CM-3671 only come close to the same performance in the H-VHF band.

It's quite doubtful that either of the all channel antennas you've listed would deliver reliable reception of real CH-2 or CH-4.

Obviously, none of the UHF only options can offer a shot at the VHF signals shown in your TVFR.

[HDTV-OTA]

@ GroundUr Mast. Thanks for reply.

You stated that the Y10713 is my best hope for reliable reception for real CH-8, WFAA(ABC). Absolutely, I want to receive ABC, BUT, what about the other VHF-Lo & VHF-Hi channels? The HD8200 is a large, long, and a wide UHF/VHF-Lo/VHF-Hi SOB and the CM-3671 is discontinued (unfortunately).

It goes without saying, for my location, I WANT to receive UHF Channels CH 14 - CH 48 - BUT WHAT ANTENNA WILL, CAN, SHOULD, or POSSIBLY DO THE JOB? To date, I have yet someone to make an absolute, most likely, Can, Could, Should, or state a comprehensive recommendation option for an antenna combo or antenna setup.

I recently bought and tried and HD4228 (60+ miles UHF) and received ZERO channels. It was possibly a return or used item, box was opened, bent top left deflector, missing 2 hardware bolts, and partially assembled. Who knows the history or condition of this HD4228? Could the balun be defective? Is it possible for an antenna to arrive with a defective balun? Could the “phasing harness” be defective? Could the impedance transformer be defective? Possibly. Based upon my 24 Year Naval Avionics Electrician background – I think it is possible. Attempted reception with a 2014 55” LED TV and a 2012 HP all-one-one CPU w/ TV tuner with 4 different coax cables – Zero channels. By all accounts, after research and reading numerous positive reviews, I should have received something and had high hopes for it. No hidden agenda towards the 4228, I wanted it to work!

You stated, “Obviously, none of the UHF only options can offer a shot at the VHF signals shown in your TVFR.”

Question: What UHF only antenna can, will, or should receive UHF channels CH14 – CH-48 at 61-70 miles distance?

Thanks for your help! Any and all advice is appreciated!!

[ADTech]

Several tips:

1. You have no receivable low-VHF in or anywhere near Dallas. Those listings for channels 2 & 4 are for licenses that are not on the air. Even if they were, they would be unreceivable at your location 95+% of the time no matter what you install. There is no useful point in considering one of the all-channel antennas at this time, that wasted aluminum could be put to use for something more useful than a bird perch, like beer cans!

2. I tested a number of retail store (Lowes, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Walmart, etc) coaxial cable products several years ago when we we qualifying a new vendor for our "basic" low-loss cable. There wasn't but a hairsbreadth of difference between any of them except the RG6 Quad Shield was slightly more lossy as expected. Avoid the temptation to "upgrade" to RG11 unless its use is specifically indicated. Its only advantage is that it is less lossy than the RG6 which is useful if you have to be ultraconservative with coaxial cable insertion loss. Such situations usually come only with either extraordinarily long runs or in runs where amplification cannot be done. The drawback of RG11 is that its much thicker, is much harder to work with, and requires tools that are cost several times what RG6 tools would cost. Since your location REQUIRES a preamp, the consideration of RG11 is moot as the amp if properly selected, will cover all your cabling losses.

3. Any of the larger UHF antennas already suggested will likely do adequately. The DB8e probably has the highest gain across the band of channels that you have on hand.

4. The AntennaCraft 10-element Yagi is probably your best shot at WFAA.

5. Regarding your test with the CM4228, it would suggest that *something* was defective. Balun, coaxial cable (especially if not new), cabling configuration perhaps, or something along that line.

Time to quit hemming and hawing and get some new metal up in the air!

[GroundUrMast]

5. Regarding your test with the CM4228, it would suggest that *something* was defective. Balun, coaxial cable (especially if not new), cabling configuration perhaps, or something along that line.
To that list, I would add, check the tuner configuration... again. If set to 'cable' or 'auto' rather than 'air' or 'antenna' you would either certainly fail to see any or likely fail to see any OTA signals.

@HDTV-OTA, If we were neighbours, you’d see a DB8E and Y10713 above my roof or on a tower.

A couple of preamps to consider... The Antennas Direct PA-18 (intend for weak signal area only) and the RCA TVPRAMP1R (more of a universal application design)

The specs of the new "Juice" preamp from Antennas Direct are very good for a 'universal fit' preamp... I have a sample in hand but need to finish recovering from recent surgery before I can safely get on the roof to tilt the mast down...

[HDTV-OTA]

@ADTech

Much appreciated you pointed out channels 2 & 4 are for licenses and not on the air. That’s good to know, but how do I read my TVFool report to see or know that?

Coaxial cable comparison – good to know you have tested and have results for various cable brands. Also, the RG6 Quad Shied had more loss – who would have known? For RG11 coax, good points on its characteristics. If the research I read was accurate on RG11, its loss was approximately 1.5dB - 2dB less than RG-6 Coax at a 100Ft. Good analogy.

AntennaCraft 10-element Yagi is probably my best shot at WFAA. Is there a possible chance to receive the other channels?

Thanks again for opining and discussing channels available, antenna choices for my location, coax cables comparison, and pre-amp requirement. That’s information that I and others can find useful and apply. Much appreciated.

P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans – I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 

[GroundUrMast]

RE. Silent stations and virtual channels carried by active stations, one of the most useful resources is www.rabbitears.info. TVFool 'specializes' in predictions of real channel reception and only offers limited correlation of real vs virtual channel mapping. TV Fool makes no effort to provide a comprehensive and detailed report of all the sub-channels carried by a station. www.rabbitears.info offers some overlap of the data that can be found at TVFool but goes much deeper into the current status of each station and the virtual channel(s) transported over the real RF channel.

The difference between the loss in RG-6 & RG-11 are about what you cite. As ADTech mentioned, losses due to cable and splitters is the job of a preamp or distribution amplifier. If you needed to run over 500' from the antenna to your house, RG-11 may be helpful. The normal cable run in a residential setting can be done with RG-6, without problems due to slope loss (high loss at high frequencies vs less loss at lower frequencies).

The Y10713 is you best shot at receiving any of the channels in the H-VHF band (real CH-7 through CH-13). There are several listed, but you'll need to aim the antenna at them to have any hope of reliable reception, which means one fixed aim antenna can't deliver all of them. Also, as you go down the list, you soon see co-channel and adjacent-channel warnings. depending on the actual severity of the interference, the weaker signals will be that much harder to get.

[Jake V]

P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans – I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 

OK. If you actually make a UHF antenna by turning beer cans into bowties, spot tie them to the grill rack, and then put the whole grill up on your roof, we want a picture!!!! :-)

[HDTV-OTA]

@GroundUrMast

Thanks for pointing out the tuner configuration - numerous times, I attempted scanning on both “Cable” and “Antenna” settings to rule out the unknown.

You stated, “If we were neighbors, you’d see a DB8E and Y10713 above my roof or on a tower”
Your antenna suggestion is Exactly the kind of information I’m looking for.
If one needs a house built, one might confer with a carpenter/builder.
If one needs 6 acres of steel sovereign territory, carrying 90 fighter jets, with 1 million pounds of laser guided ordnance, parked off the coast of a foe, then one would call on the US Navy.
That’s the reason I’m going to the Antenna Reception Pros.

A couple of preamps to consider... The Antennas Direct PA-18 (intend for weak signal area only) and the RCA TVPRAMP1R (more of a universal application design)

Yeah, you mentioned the new "Juice" preamp from Antennas Direct. I just searched and below is link with a video and the SPECS: http://www.antennasdirect.com/blog/tag/pre-amp/

FULL 19 dB Signal increase on UHF stations; 17.5 dB on VHF
2 dB noise margin
Cell Phone and Data Filtering
Includes Power Supply and DC Power Inserter & Mounting Straps
Easily installs in most homes/apartments.
The JUICE Preamp is now available and ready for shipment.
PRICE: $79.99

It looks promising, designed well, compact, and seems to be built well.
Thanks for bringing that for review.

Wish you all the best and a God speed in your recovery!

[HDTV-OTA]

@GroundUrMast

Thanks for introducing me to www.rabbitears.info. Checked it out - Did some browsing, there is lots of stuff to be found. Please tell me how or where I should focus to find what I need for my location(DFW, Decatur).

RG6 vs RG11 Coax – Thanks for offering additional, supportive and practical advice on its usage.

Hi- VHF reception – Y10713 thanks for supporting, recommending and explaining my best shot, and aiming just one antenna and its results.

The experts seem to solve the reception of UHF/VHF with a scalpel, and I’m attempting to solve it with a machete or sword!!

Wish You All the Best and GOD Speed In Your Recovery!


P.S. Opportunity may knock, but Jack FM just breaks in!!! :-) Dang!

P.S.2 I love my Jack-in-the-Box, but most of all I love my Jack FM!! :-)

[HDTV-OTA]

@ Jake V.

P.S. Just had an epiphany for UHF, you mentioned beer cans – I can cut my empty beer cans up into bowtie shapes (given their sharp edges, birds may not perch on it), spot tie them to my BBQ grill rack, and connect a 75 Ohm resistor balun to it and stick that metal in the air! 

Glad I can help!!! The Wheels and Gears are turning! :-) A picture could, should, and can be provided!!

P.S. - No purchase necessary, earning your trust since I went Jack “FM”.

[GroundUrMast]

I use this URL: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php as a start point for most of my searches on rabbitears.info. When you enter one call sign in the search box, you'll land on a page that lists all stations for that geographic market.

Kudos to tripelo (webmaster of rabbitears) for developing and maintaining such an valuable resource.

[HDTV-OTA]

Thanks for the URL for searching “rabbitears.info” Sure, many “BZ’s” to tripelo for developing and maintaining a tremendous resource.

[HDTV-OTA]

@ tripelo,

Recently learned of and viewed “rabbitears.info”. Tremendous resource!

Thanks for providing the different preamp comparison, very useful.

Good to know: “The RF environment in DFW consists of dense signals. Virtually every usable UHF channel is occupied, only 2 VHF stations (Channels 8 & 9).”

Question: Need your advice, thoughts, and wisdom. If you were my neighbor, close enough that the house appeared to be a duplex, Given my location, what antenna or antenna options/systems would you install?

I’m approximately 60 - 70 miles NW from the Cedars Hills antenna farm.

Large, small, individual or combination UHF/VHF antennas do not matter for my location. (Of course more channels the better?!)

Below is my report:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d2c154fe5313e71


Thanks - much appreciated for any and all advice!!

[ADTech]

Kudos to tripelo (webmaster of rabbitears)

Oops, wrong "trip".

The Webmaster of Rabbitears.info goes by "Trip in VA" or "Trip Ericson". Trip lives near Washington DC and now works for the FCC supporting the new software for the looming reverse spectrum auction.

http://www.rabbitears.info/contact.php


Our local "Tripelo" lives near DFW.

[GroundUrMast]

Once again, I'm :o

[HDTV-OTA]

Thanks ADTech. Trip Ericson is the man!!

No worries, It happens to the Best of us!!

[tripelo]

@ tripelo,...
Given my location, what antenna or antenna options/systems would you install?...

Not sure.

Unless there is something a bit unusual that has not been discussed;

There are several good, or maybe acceptable, antenna options with preamplifier.

...Large, small, individual or combination UHF/VHF antennas do not matter for my location. (Of course more channels the better?!) ...

Seems the first thing to do would be to figure out why your current CM4228HD cannot receive any stations.

If a functional CM4228HD with preamplifier and proper setup does not provide intermittent detection of any stations, then likely no combination of other antennas would suffice.

.

[HDTV-OTA]

I may order another new CM4228HD and see how it works. From reading the characteristics and other's reviews, should have received something. Also, the DB8 seems to compare to the CM4228 - maybe a little less sensitive in lower UHF or vice versa?
I haven't attempted to open the 4228'a balun and troubleshoot it.
I'm reading about the HBU-55, MXU59, XG91, 10-7-13 and CM3671 to pair it with the new 4228.
On side note: Was thinking to add a piece of mesh type wire to the 4228 reflector to test if sensitivity improves.