Help choose antenna for attic [Archive]

toadcat

8-Jul-2013, 2:12 PM

We just built a new house and want to go with OTA tv instead of satellite for now. Here is my set up.

I have 5 home runs of quad shield going from the attic to a data closet. 1 for antenna the other 4 for satellite if we decide to go that route. From that closet I have 12 more quad shield home runs going to various spots in the house for tv connections.

I plan on hooking everything up like this. Antenna-amplifier-joint-8 connection splitter (if possible). The run from the antenna to splitter is about 50-60 feet IF I have to add the joint and place the antenna close the the gable wall. If I don't need the antenna close to the outside gable wall then the run from antenna to splitter will be around 30 feet. The longest run from splitter will be around 40-50 feet.

Here is what I would like recommendations on.

Antenna in attic. The sheathing on the roof has thermal foil on the back. I hope that won't interfere with the signals. The direction the antenna will point will not be through the sheathing but through the siding which is James Hardie concrete siding. Should I place the antenna close to the gable or several feet away from it?

Amplifier as the longest run from the antenna will be around 100 feet.

8 connection splitter. There will be 6 connections now and when I finish the basement there will be 2 more connections.

Here is my TV Signal Analysis.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0559697d58d120

I appreciate any and all information.

I would like to keep the antenna in the attic but if the signals don't come through then I will place on the roof.

Thanks,
JW

toadcat

9-Jul-2013, 3:20 PM

Doing some research and reading it seems like the Winegard HD7696P is highly recommended but has been discontinued. Looking at Winegards website I see they have a more powerful antenna in the HD7697P.

Would the HD7697P be a good recommendation for my situation. It also says "Substitute the HD7084P or HD8200U to add low-band VHF reception." on the page for 7697. Do I need low-band VHF redeption?

As for the splitter, is there a recommended 8 way splitter? There are so many different ones.

I am lost as to the amplifier.

I appreciate the help.

teleview

9-Jul-2013, 5:46 PM

The Broadcast Tv station Are Weak Signal Strength at your location.

Ok , here is how to receive both groups of Broadcast Tv stations/channels , the North West group , and the , North East Group , at the same time with 2 antennas , one preamp , one down lead , and a non power passing 8 way splitter.

Above the Peak Of The Roof in such a manner that reception is not impeded and blocked by the roof and house in the directions of , North West , North East.

Install a AntennasDirect , Clear Stream 4 UHF antenna with the ->Reflector Screens Removed.

This will allow the CS4 to receive at the front and back of the CS4 antenna.

Aim the CS4 antenna at about 85 degree magnetic compass direction , this will position the CS4 to receive the 2 groups of Tv stations at the front and back of the CS4 antenna.

Adjust the aim direction of the CS4 antenna for best reception of the 2 groups of Tv stations directions.

Also install a AntennaCraft , Y10-7-13 VHF high band antenna aimed at about 320 degree magnetic compass direction.

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Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

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The CS4 and Y10-7-13 antennas Must Be Up In The Air Clear of Obstructions to reception by the roof and house.

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The CS4 and Y10-7-13 antennas are connected together with a UHF/VHF diplexer/combiner. AntennasDirect , Model Number , EU385CF-1s .

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Install a Channel Master CM7777 preamp to the output of the UHF/VHF combiner so that both antennas are amplified at the same time.

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The , preamp unit , power injector , power supply , are all connected , before the input of a , Non power passing , 8 way passive splitter.

So power supply and power injector is going to the preamp unit only.

A Non power passing splitter is used , so as to not pass the preamp power out to Tv locations.

If 6 Tv's are connected , then use a 6 way Non power passing passive splitter.

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Here are some above the roof antenna mounts.

http://www.ronard.com/909911.html.
Use the 5 foot tripod antenna mount , ronard (911).

http://www.ronard.com/34424560.html.
Use the , ronard (4560) , eave antenna mount.

http://www.ronard.com/ychim.html.
Measure the chimney and use a , ronard (2212) , ronard (2218) , ronard (2224) .

Buy the ronard antenna mounts at solidsignal by typing , ronard (x) , in the solisignal search box or buy from ronard.

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Here are some places to buy antennas and ect. .

http://www.solidsignal.com.

http://www.amazon.com.

http://www.antennacraft.net.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com.

http://www.antennasdirect.com.

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toadcat

9-Jul-2013, 7:27 PM

teleview,
Thank you for the detailed instructions. Do I need the dual antenna? Won't the stations from Topeka be the same from KC or will they have different programming?

Granted I like the idea of having more channels but it is not needed.

Looks like I will have a good project once all the materials arrive.

Thanks!

toadcat

9-Jul-2013, 7:36 PM

One other question.

Can the CS4 be mounted on the mast below the Y10-7-13?

teleview

9-Jul-2013, 8:00 PM

To keep it Simple.

If you like you can install 1 antenna , HD7696P antenna or HD7697P antenna aimed at about 45 degree magnetic compass direction.

KQSA has The Country Network on channel 12 in the direction of 320 degree magnetic compass direction , the signal strength is Very Weak.

KQSA is the main reason for the the 2 antenna set up , other then that the Networks are the same NBC , FOX , ABC , CW , PBS , MyNetwork , same Networks , both directions , the local programing and ads, will be different.

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Makes no difference the antenna that is on top or bottom.

I think it looks better to have the Y10-7-13 on the bottom and the CS4 on the top , however either way is Ok.

ADTech

9-Jul-2013, 9:06 PM

Antenna in attic. The sheathing on the roof has thermal foil on the back. I hope that won't interfere with the signals. The direction the antenna will point will not be through the sheathing but through the siding which is James Hardie concrete siding. Should I place the antenna close to the gable or several feet away from it?

Forget the attic. Hardie-board and radiant barrier are both signal killers.

Kansas City's station's are all UHF, Topeka's are a mix of UHF and high-VHF. If you want both cities, it's going to take some work and luck. A single city would be easy. The biggest advantage of getting both would probably be sporting events that might be blacked out in one city but not the other. Your choice

The reflector-less C4 won't work, sorry, the beamwidth is too narrow. If you want to try two antennas tied together, select ones with significant nulls at 90° and keep them at right angles to each other. Amplify each separately, then combine the the amplified output using a reversed splitter. Cross your fingers and hold your breath, because this is not a high-reliability proposition.

Best of luck!

teleview

9-Jul-2013, 10:10 PM

AD Tech's reference to 2 UHF antennas.

A Antenna Directs , DB8e , 2 panels that can be aimed different directions and receive 2 different directions at the same time.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/DB8e-Ultra-Long-Range-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html.

Aim one panel to the , North East Group of Tv stations.

And the other panel at the , North West group of Tv stations.

Pete Higgins

9-Jul-2013, 10:19 PM

toadcat,

I’ve had cable for the last 32 years, so “playing” with TV antennas has become more of a hobby than a necessity. I tried using an 8-Bay Bow Tie with movable panels to receive stations from two different markets (~123 deg. apart) and had very poor results (my signals are even weaker than yours, so I lost almost everything).

A gentleman on this forum (tripelo) explained that when the panels aren’t aligned in the same plain with both panels’ signals arriving on the same channel(s) in phase and adding in the combiner, the signals on one panel see the other panel and ~½ of the signal is reradiated by the different panel. To prevent this he recommended “isolating” one panel from the other using pre-amps, exactly what ADTech recommended. He recommended using “matched” preamps which I didn’t have so I kind of winged it with what I had and it made all the difference in the world.

A single 4-Bay in each direction didn’t provide enough signal strength at my location so I applied the same logic to two 8-Bays with much better results. I also added a VHF High antenna to receive VHF signals from one market.

Here is a link to a power passing combiner that will pass power to two amplifiers isolating two panels or two separate UHF antennas; http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=cp2512&d=channel-plus-cp2512-dc--ir-passing-2-way-splitter/combiner-(cp2512)&sku=782644003417&utm_campaign=base&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=google_base

Here is a link to a whole series of posts on the experiments I recently ran with pictorials of my working design (post # 40); http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=2288

If you truly want to feed up to 8 different sets I would recommend an amplified 8-Way splitter like the PCT MA2 -8P; http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=pctma28p&d=pct-pctma28p-8-way-pass-return-drop-amplifier-(pct-ma2-8p)

I assume a rotor to turn your antennas isn’t practical because people in different parts of the house are going to want to watch channels arriving from different directions?

teleview

10-Jul-2013, 6:12 AM

Information about the reception element of a antenna and a reflector that is
'behind' the reception element.

A reflector that is 'behind' the reception element creates a narrower forward beam width and the greatest amount of reception is one direction.

Removing the reflector so that only the reception element remains will Increase the beam width to a Very Wide Beam Width.

As an example.

The standard indoor rabbit ears type antenna , 2 reception rods for VHF reception , has - Very Wide Beam Widths - and is a Bi Directional Antenna.

The UHF reception Loop that is part of the standard indoor rabbit ears type antenna is a single reception element and has Very Wide Beam Widths and is also Bi Directional.

The same situation also applies to the CS4 UHF antenna UHF reception Loops.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 has Very Wide Beam Widths and is Bi Directional.

Receiving on both sides of the CS4 antenna.

My evaluation is , the CS4 antenna with no reflector screens , will receive the groups of Tv stations to the , North West and North East.

toadcat

10-Jul-2013, 12:11 PM

Oh my. All this has become more confusing. I didn't think OTA would be so complex. Just an antenna, point it where the stations are, watch TV.

What do all these numbers and acronyms mean? There are people with different views on what to do and each have different equipment recommendations. I don't mind figuring out stuff on my own, but I can't be buying all this stuff and then have to buy more because it didn't work.

I guess I was really hoping that a suggestion would come up and people would agree that is the best coarse or action. I do appreciate everyone's knowledge and willingness to share it.

Teleview...I like the idea of trying to pick up that topeka station with "The Country Network". If you think taking the reflectors off the CS4 will allow for picking up that station then I will go that route. I guess the CS4 will be pointing Northwest, correct?

Pete...It sounds like you know what you are talking about by saying I should put two amplifiers on my setup. One for each antenna before the combiner.

Again, thanks for all the help.

ADTech

10-Jul-2013, 12:15 PM

Removing the reflector so that only the reception element remains will Increase the beam width to a Very Wide Beam Width.

Adding directors or placing multiple elements in a horizontal array will narrow the horizontal beamwidth. Reflectors increase forward gain by suppressing the rear lobe.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 ,,,,, is Bi Directional.

Absolutely correct.

With the reflector screens removed , the CS4 has Very Wide Beam Widths a.....

This is incorrect. The reflector on a panel-style antenna,whether loops or bowties, has little effect on the horizontal beamwidth of the antenna's main forward lobe.

In any event, trying to pick up signals from 45° off boresight with an antenna that exhibits a horizontal beamwidth of less than 45° won't work unless you happen have a side-lobe that lines up with the signal path on the frequencies of interest.

I don't have polar plots of the C4 sans reflectors, but I do have ones of a single tapered loop with and without reflectors that exhibit the behavior I described. I've also located some plots of a commercial 8-bay with and without reflectors that also exhibit the expected behavior.

toadcat

10-Jul-2013, 6:12 PM

Ok, so I can get all this stuff ordered and on the way so I can install. Can I get confirmation that this would be the best set-up?

1. Antennas Direct Clear Stream 4 pointed to the northeast. I'll leave the reflectors on.
2. Antenna Craft Y10-7-13 pointed to the northwest.
3. Two Channel Master CM7777 added in line before the next item.
4. Antennas Direct EU385CF-1s UHF/VHF combiner
5. When needed as we only have one tv right now. A non-power passive splitter for however many tvs we have.

I appreciate the help.

toadcat

10-Jul-2013, 6:44 PM

Just thinking. Could I buy two UHF/VHF antennas and point one toward KC and the other to Topeka and receive both versions of channels from each market? Or am I just thinking way to simple about it. For example:

Two of these - Solid Signal Xtreme Signal HDB91x with one pointed 85 degree the other at 320.
Or two of these pointed the same - Antennacraft HBU33 High-VHF/UHF Antenna.

toadcat

10-Jul-2013, 7:47 PM

Another option. Buy a UHF antenna to point towards KC and a Hi-Band VHF to get the one channel from Topeka as my wife likes watching country music videos.

If so any recommendations for which antennas to get? Can I still do the setup as mentioned before. Antenna, preamp for each antenna, combiner to tv.

Sorry for all the questions and confusion/questions. The wife is wanting tv for the kids now and I am lost with all this as we have always had free cable because she worked for the cable company. Now with our move we have no access to cable and I don't want to get into a contract with a satellite company.

ADTech

10-Jul-2013, 9:11 PM

There are multiple options to consider. Generically:

KC only - A single, long-range UHF antenna. No pre-amp is likely to be needed for a single set.

Topeka only, all channels - A long-range high-VHF/UHF combo antenna. Needs pre-amp.

KC plus Topeka VHF - A long-range UHF antenna aimed at KC and a high-VHF antenna at Topeka, combine with U/V combiner. Pre-amp needed.

KC plus all Topeka - see post #7 (requires two pre-amps and a double cable run).

There are far better choices in pre-amps than the CM7777. It's high gain makes it easy to overload a system and it should be used with discretion only when needed. FWIW, I have yet to find an amplifier in any chain retail store that carries a pre-amp that I like. You'll likely do best if an appropriate amp is ordered.

Realistically, you could have something up in the air this afternoon or tomorrow as a start. Best Buy carries the C4 with 20" CJ-mount in many of their stores. Add the necessary coax to install the antenna pointed at KC and hook the single set up, configure everything, then evaluate for subsequent steps as needed.

At this point, you'd do best to make a decision as to what option best serves your needs as an initial step. Most of the options I laid out offer a good basis for growing the system.

Best of luck!

toadcat

10-Jul-2013, 9:28 PM

ADTech, thanks for the replies. I go with the first option just to get up and running and if the wife wants the other channel from Topeka then I'll add to what I have.

Any guidance on the HD Stacker Antenna from Denny's?

Pete Higgins

10-Jul-2013, 10:45 PM

toadcat,

ADTech laid out all the practical options I could think of and he’s a professional.

One thing that did occur to me is that if you decide to buy a preamp, you should at least run an FM Fool report to look for strong nearby FM stations. Typically, the more gain a preamp has the more prone it is to overloading from one or more strong local stations that fall within its band pass. It doesn’t appear that you have any nearby TV stations to worry about but FM stations can be just as lethal. From what I’ve read, the Channel Master CM-7777 is one of the more overload prone.

Antennas Direct also sells the Clear Stream 4 bundled with a PA-18 VHF/UHF amplifier, 100’ of coax and a ‘J’ Mount that might give you everything you need to get up and running.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream4-Digital-Antenna-Bundle.html

I have a Antennas Direct 91XG that performance & construction wise I am very happy with.

Perhaps ADTech can address the relative merits of each for your situation. I know I would be very interested in the comparison.

ADTech

11-Jul-2013, 2:17 PM

Any guidance on the HD Stacker Antenna from Denny's?

Well, he's never provided any useful performance data on the antenna (even when pressed), I've never tested it (don't plan to, either), you have no need for its low-VHF elements which contribute to its size and bulk, and I'd suspect that the Siamese twin concept has ill-considered side effects in terms of undesirable coupling between the two antenna sections.

The C4 and other UHF-only antennas shouldn't be particularly susceptible to FM interference. In any event, that issue is easily handled with FM traps/filters in most circumstances.

Our PA18 would certainly be recommended for this application should a pre-amp be required.

coco

11-Jul-2013, 10:58 PM

I've been having a HD STACKER since May 2010 with no problems.It is a VHF-HI &UHF antenna. It is only 60 inches wide by 70 inches long, and weighs only 9 pounds. Here is my TVF report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...9900d006f15e2a
I catch everything on my list down to: WLPB channel 24 PBS 24 hours-7 days .
I catch down to WLOX channnel 39 ABC after dark. I have my Stacker on a rotor. '

toadcat

12-Jul-2013, 11:34 PM

I know that we have a local AM station. KOFO 1220 on the dial. Would that hinder any reception?

Thanks!

Pete Higgins

13-Jul-2013, 2:42 AM

toadcat,

Unless it’s right in your backyard I don’t think an AM station will bother you (your VHF/UHF amplifier).

I have a -15.6 dBm UHF TV station & a -13.4 dBm FM station co-located on a mountain 3.5 miles out my back door. My Antennacraft 10 element VHF Yagi and my Antennas Direct 91XG UHF antenna have to point right at them to receive the Los Angeles stations 58 miles away.

When I originally connected those antennas to a Winegard AP-2870 preamplifier the two local stations severely overloaded it. I also tried connecting them through a UVSJ to a Winegard HDP-269 amplifier with similar results. I eventually mast mounted PCT MA2-M cable TV +15 dB, 2.7 dB avg. NF drop amplifiers to both antennas ahead of the UVSJ to preclude the overload. The PCT amplifiers are designed to work in the presence of the numerous and relatively strong signals supplied by cable companies.

Last month I ordered 3 FM band filters from Antennas Direct. I have a Winegard 10 element VHF Yagi feeding the AP-2870 VHF input through one of the FM filters and an 8-Bay Bow Tie feeding the AP-2870 UHF input through a Channel Plus NF-471 55 dB notch filter. Using both of these filters seems to prevent overloading the AP-2870.

As ADTech says:
The C4 and other UHF-only antennas shouldn't be particularly susceptible to FM interference. In any event, that issue is easily handled with FM traps/filters in most circumstances.

My VHF Yagi’s (174- 216 MHz) seem to be pretty responsive to FM band signals (88-108 MHz). I suggested checking for strong local FM stations (http://www.fmfool.com/) so if you decided to add a VHF high antenna and were faced with a situation like me you would have identified it ahead of time.

toadcat

15-Jul-2013, 12:31 PM

Hi Pete,
It looks like there will be FM towers pretty close to me if I decide to add the VHF antenna to pick up the Topeka channel. I guess I will be researching that before I decide to do that.

Here is my FMFool report. http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Thanks.

Pete Higgins

15-Jul-2013, 11:58 PM

toadcat,

Unlike your TV Fool report, FM Fool resets so the link takes us to a page that needs all your information to complete. You can take a screen shot of your report and add it as an attachment for us if you like. Mainly, I just wanted you to be aware that any strong signals within the bandpass of your amplifier could overload it and they don't necessarily have to come from just TV stations.

I don't have a CM-7777, but from what I've read on the forums, they are more prone to overload than some of your other choices.

toadcat

16-Jul-2013, 11:23 AM

I guess it doesn't hurt to add the image.

So these FM signals will only interfere with the VHF antenna if/when I decide to add it and point towards Topeka. Which should be the stations in the 280deg to 310deg direction.

Just another clarification to see if I have this right. After I attach the antenna, I then add a grounding block to run the rg6 through before it gets into the house. From what I have read, this ground wire should run to my ground rod at my service entrance. If so, this is a pretty long distance and will have at least two bends. Is it recommended to add another ground rod at the shortest distance and straight line to the antenna/mast? Then I connect that ground rod to my ground rod at the service entrance. I am calling the service entrance where my meter sits on a pedestal. I attached a rough drawing of it all. Blue lines are the ground wires.

Well I bought the Clearstream4 and a J mount and they should be here Friday or Monday. I shouldn't need a amplifier so I am going to set it up and see what happens.

Thanks!

jjbb

18-Jul-2013, 9:36 PM

It sounds like you are in Lawrence. Maybe once you have it all figured out, you can come install mine :).

toadcat

22-Jul-2013, 12:07 PM

jjbb, I am in Ottawa area.

Well, I got CS4 antenna Thursday. Waited till Friday to start figuring out my wires in the attic. While in the attic I figured I would hook it up and see what reception I could get. Attached the J-hook to a rafter about 4 foot from the gable and pointed the CS4 towards the general direction of KC (NE). Remember that I have James Hardie fiber cement siding and Eclipse thermofoil backed sheathing. I ran my antenna cable towards the antenna and it wasn't long enough. So I cut another cable and pathed them together. Hooked it up and went downstairs to scan.

It started scanning and nothing was coming up. It got about half way through then slowed. I thought great, I am going to have to put the antenna up on the roof. Then a channel popped up and another until it said 34 channels available. I thought cool!

toadcat

22-Jul-2013, 12:14 PM

Here are the channels I am receiving.

4.1 WDAF DT
4.2 WDAF SD
5.1 KCTV
9.1 KMBC DT
9.2 KMBC ME
11.1 KTWU HD
11.2 KTWU DT2
11.3 KTWU DT3
13.1 WIBW HD
13.2 WIBW DT
16.1 KTAJ D1
16.2 KTAJ D2
16.3 KTAJ D3
16.4 KTAJ D4
16.5 KTAJ D5
18.7 Signal cannot be decoded (any suggestions on this?)
18.8 Same as 18.7
19.1 KCPT 1
19.2 KCPT 2
19.3 KCPT 3
27.1 KSNT DT
27.2 KSNT DT
29.1 KCWE DT
29.2 This KC
38.1 KMCI TV
38.2 KMCI LW
41.1 KSHB TV
41.2 KSHB CZ
50.1 ION
50.2 QUBO
50.3 ION Life
50.4 SHOP TV
62.1 KSMO TV
62.2 Bounce

Anyone know where I can get a channel guide for these channels. Searching through the channels every time isn't fun. I appreciate it!

teleview

22-Jul-2013, 7:26 PM

If you will like to receive KSQA Real Digital VHF channel 12 , virtual number (22.1) , The Country Network , Aka , ZUUS Country Network.

And some other Digital Tv stations/channels on down the channel list.

My recommendation , Still Stands.

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http://www.zap2it.com.

http://www.titantv.com.

And can find more by typing in the google and yahoo and etc. search boxes.

tv guides on the internet , find tv guides , broadcast tv guides , tv guides , channel listings , tv channel list , and , etc. , etc. , etc. .

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Most likely , as for 18.7 , 18.8 .

In different cites around the USA.

Tv delivery providers such as And Not Limited To , ION Television , and EchoStar , are Testing Pay Tv services ~Via~ Digital Broadcast Tv using a Tv antenna.

ION TV has been testing for some time now.

Other / Providers / Tv Networks , are also testing.

That use a Separate Tuner / Decoder box.

Here is one example.

http://www.rabbitears.info/blog/index.php?post/2013/05/15/Echostar-Expands-Channel-56.

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