Antenna Selection

[bbarr]

I'm looking to replace Time Warner Cable with OTA. I have both an HD TV and SD TVs. It would be nice if I could get my selected channels with an Attic antenna (1 story attic) as that is where my 4 way splitter is located. I just looked and the splitter is a CATV Drop Amplifier GDA38.

Here is a link to my tvfool report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf4d894f8155c

If I could get all the channels listed up to KPXLDT I would get basically everything I am currently subscribing to with Time Warner.

If I had to, I could put the antenna on my 2nd story, but it would be a lot more difficult to run a cable back to my splitter and it would probably run over 30 feet to get to it.

[bbarr]

I wanted to ask for suggestions but I ran out of room writing my post. Maybe a user error. :) Also I could put an outside antenna on the 1st floor... and it wouldn't be quite as difficult.

Any recommendations and suggestions are very welcome as I really don't, as yet, understand all the nuances figuring this out.

Thank you in advance.

[John Candle]

KNIC-DT 18 is Telefutura , KSAA-LP 29 is FOX , KAXX-LP 35 is CBS , KSSJ-LP 47 is PBS. . The Odd Ones Out here KCWX 5 is The CW , KNVA-DT 49 is The CW , the locations of the CW's make it difficult to receive the other Networks and the CW with One antenna. . So you have 4 Tv's connected?? The GDA38 is a 8 output distribution amplifier , are 8 devices connected to the outputs ?? How many devices are connected ??

[bbarr]

I don’t need those 2 CW channels.

I have 4 cables running out of the GDA38, but really only use 3 of the outputs on 3 TVs. Probably never will use the 4th spare room that is wired up.

[John Candle]

Ok I suggest a Winegard HD7082P antenna with a Winegard HDP269 preamp , mounted on the roof. . Replace the distribution amp. with a Simple 3 way Splitter. . Direct the antenna at about 216 magnetic compass. The channels to receive are the Digital Channels. If any of the analog channels are received then Ok , if not then Ok. . KCXW 5 The CW is very strong station and might be received with this one antenna. . If not , and you will like to receive it then I recommend a Simple Non-Amplified indoor antenna directed at channel 5 and a Remote Control A/B Antenna Switch from Radio Shack at the Tv locations that will like to receive channel 5 , so as to switch between the outside antenna and inside antenna. Here is how to aim Tv antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html . . Here are simple indoor Tv antennas , http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 . Read and understand this about Real Digital Tv Channels and Virtual Digital Tv Channels and Analog Tv Channels. Here are places to buy Tv antennas and etc. http://www.solidsignal.com , http://www.starkelectronic.com , http://www.3starinc.com , http://www.amazon.com . . Here are some online Tv Guides , http://television.aol.com , http://tvlistings.zap2it.com , http://www.titantv.com

[bbarr]

Thanks for your reply. Lots of good info you provided. I’ve been playing around with the Titan TV schedule lineup to get a better idea of the different programming on all the channels. Looks like this will be better than my Basic Time Warner subscription.

I’ve also downloaded the Google Earth overlay for the San Antonio metro area. Been entertaining myself with all the station towers and drawing lines to my house rooftop. One thing I’m a little concerned about is a hill that peaks out about 200 yards from my antenna site. According to Google Earth, I’m about 892 ft above sea level. A line of site that points towards a major cluster of prime towers from my house has to get over the hill at an apex of about 935 ft ASL… 200 yards from my house approx. I just looked at 1 tower that was 1969 ft ASL 32 miles away. I guess I need to pull my trigonometry book out and see how that works.

Any ideas what I’m up against?

Thanks for your help.

[Dave Loudin]

Cool feature: click on any station in the table of your TVF report to see the path profile the model used.

[John Candle]

I have forgot trig a long time ago. However , go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool , enter the exact address , select pending applications , and enter in different antenna heights to clear the hill between the receiving antenna and transmitting antenna. Also can move the receiving antenna ( red balloon pointer) to other locations. Interesting stuff.

[John Candle]

Titan Tv shows the Virtual Digital Channels. Titan Tv shows the Originating Stations and Repeaters/Translators and Low Power Stations. And also lists stations that are outside of the reception of a location. Takes a while to figure it out. . Here are 2 more online Tv Guides , http://television.aol.com , http://tvlistings.zap2it.com . . You like to explore so here are other sites to check out , http://www.dtv.gov , click on reception maps. . Go to home page http://www.fcc.gov , click on Search at top of page then click on , TV Station Query or FM Station Query or AM Station Query on left hand side of page. . Also go to the Special Topics and Enthusiast's Exchange parts of tvfool , all these sites will provide tons of information.

[bbarr]

Cool feature: click on any station in the table of your TVF report to see the path profile the model used.

I took a look at that and it seems I'm in the clear. But looking at the graph, I'm not sure if the top left corner would be the height of the transmitter and the bottom right corner my house receiving antenna?

If so, it looks like I clear the hill. Also just looking at google earth a few more times looks like I'm only having to clear about a third of the hill. It's amazing how a few houses to my left changes that up quite a bit for the worse.


http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf4d894f8155c%26t%3dDIGITAL%26n%3d6

[bbarr]

oops, I gave the wrong stations profile. The cluster that is more in line with the hill is here.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf4d894f8155c%26t%3dDIGITAL%26n%3d8

[Dave Loudin]

I took a look at that and it seems I'm in the clear. But looking at the graph, I'm not sure if the top left corner would be the height of the transmitter and the bottom right corner my house receiving antenna?

If so, it looks like I clear the hill. Also just looking at google earth a few more times looks like I'm only having to clear about a third of the hill. It's amazing how a few houses to my left changes that up quite a bit for the worse.

That's why we stress using your exact location for best results. The height of the transmitting antenna is where the rays appear to come together at the left side, not the top corner. You are at ground level (more or less) on the right end.

[bbarr]

That's why we stress using your exact location for best results. The height of the transmitting antenna is where the rays appear to come together at the left side, not the top corner. You are at ground level (more or less) on the right end.

ok I got you. But on the right end, the color spectrum changes quite a bit from the top right to the bottom right.

Also the color coding seems backwards when compared to what type antenna to use. If you are right by the transmitting tower is solid red.

[ADTech]

ok I got you. But on the right end, the color spectrum changes quite a bit from the top right to the bottom right.

Also the color coding seems backwards when compared to what type antenna to use. If you are right by the transmitting tower is solid red.

If you are referring to the CEA color scheme, there is no correlation, either accidental or intentional between it and the colors used on the overlays and cross-sections.

[Dave Loudin]

Yes, the color at the right side will change quite a bit once the path is far enough to be shadowed by something. That helps you to see why your prediction comes out the way it did, and helps you guage how much height you would have to add to change things. (Remember, the vertical scale is not the same between two profiles.) The two examples you offer above show pretty uniform signal top-to-bottom in the second case, and some mild scattering in the first case. Don't forget that your antenna is very close to the grey ground at the right end.

Yes, the color scheme between maps and charts is not the same. The map's coloring is analagous to temperature (hotter equals red, eh?) while the chart's scheme is a stoplight format.

[Dave Loudin]

Just a quick primer on the path profiles...

This (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf44d13b87e59%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d14) is an example of signal that is way beyond the radio horizon (thanks to terrain), so all the signal is waaay overhead. The only time this could be received is if there is enhanced scattering due to tropospheric effects.

This (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf44d13b87e59%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d5) is an example of terrain shielding, where the person would have had a clear path to the transmitter save for one nasty little peak. Note how the propagation models show how UHF signals scatter over obstructions (not well.) This (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d3cf44d13b87e59%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d3) is an example of how the models treat VHF signal scatter (much better.)

Side note - these are from northern West Virginia. You can see why that market stuck with VHF for the most part.

[bbarr]

Ahhh... I see what you are talking about. Thanks for clearing that up.

Ok I suggest a Winegard HD7082P antenna with a Winegard HDP269 preamp , mounted on the roof. . Replace the distribution amp. with a Simple 3 way Splitter. . [/URL]

From what I can tell, this antenna is 10' x 10'?

I have a choice between my 2nd story and 1st story. The 1st story could actually be right above where my old splitter is. Would that be any advantage vs. the long run necessary from my 2nd story option. I'm sure it would be better for overall reception, but i just wonder how much. That is probably a pretty difficult thing to answer.

Also, any recommendations about a local installer in my area. I live in New Braunfels, Tx. Between San Antonio and Austin.

[Dave Loudin]

I took a look at that and it seems I'm in the clear. But looking at the graph, I'm not sure if the top left corner would be the height of the transmitter and the bottom right corner my house receiving antenna?

If so, it looks like I clear the hill. Also just looking at google earth a few more times looks like I'm only having to clear about a third of the hill. It's amazing how a few houses to my left changes that up quite a bit for the worse.

Now that you're calibrated with the profiles, note that you do NOT clear the hill - check the table of your report. You're not too far over the edge and the signal strengths are strong, so you can still see plenty of signal. However, most of your paths are 1-edge.

John's antenna recommendation is meant to help you get ch. 5. You've mentioned that you don't care about that one, so we can recommend a different, smaller antenna. Focussing only on the San Antonio stations, a Winegard HD7694P or similar antenna will work. The challenge, though, is getting KPXL, the ION affiliate, licensed to Uvalde, TX. It's 70 degrees off-axis from the other San Antonio stations and the antenna you need for reliable reception will have a beamwidth of 40 to 50 degrees or so. Your best choice would be to get a rotor to aim the antenna as you need. The bonus would be having the flexibility to point at Austin if you want.

Trying to engineer a two-antenna solution for San Antonio is complex. Any UHF antenna that could see all the stations will not have enough gain to get KPXL without drop-outs. Therefore, you would have to buy an antenna like an Antennas Direct DB4 just for that station and use a special combiner called a Jointenna to add the signal into the other feed.

[Dave Loudin]

I have a choice between my 2nd story and 1st story. The 1st story could actually be right above where my old splitter is. Would that be any advantage vs. the long run necessary from my 2nd story option. I'm sure it would be better for overall reception, but i just wonder how much. That is probably a pretty difficult thing to answer.

Actually, this is relatively easy to estimate. If you enter TVFool this way (http://tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90) (the maps option), you can drag the reception location marker to exactly over your location, then experiment with different antenna heights. Each time you click away from the box where you enter height, the predictions update. The formatting's a little funky, but you can figure it out (pay attention to the NM values). If you employ a pre-amp, then your cable losses will be essentially zero for the lengths you are contemplating.

[bbarr]

The rotor idea with a smaller antenna is beginning to sound more enticing. My wife has a problem with a large antenna on the roof and I still have to check out our HOA rules. Personally I would like to put a large antenna up. The bigger the better!

I wouldn’t mind getting the CW channel (would this complicate the antenna selection with the low 2.1 VHF frequency?) occasionally and the Austin broadcasts. I would primarily watch the San Antonio channels most of the time. I played around with the balloon thingy. Only after I switched the map to hybrid could I zoom in and use the features. I just find that out today. I realize now that LOS and EDGE1 and EDGE2 lets me know if I have a direct signal hit. I’m not sure what the difference is between edge 1 and 2 but I seem to still get a pretty strong signal… noise wise. I guess since the hills around here aren’t THAT tall it isn’t such a big deal in general.

I’ve got a neighbor tree issue also. Not sure how much that might affect my noise dBs. But I can see by putting the antenna on the 2nd story part of the house helps out on the line of site to more of my station towers in SA.

Thanks for everybody’s help. This stuff is somewhat complicated.

[John Candle]

Installing the ALL Channel antenna and possibly get channel 5 The CW and if that does not work then adding a SIMPLE indoor antenna for 5 is the Simplest way to do it. So you might be thinking , how do the Pay Cable companys get all those channels on the one cable. Go to the cable company 'head end' and see ALL of the many Tv antennas pointed in many different directions , go inside to the equipment room and See the Racks of Equipment that , receive , separate , change a channel to a different channel and combine all that and more on to one cable , it all adds up to High Dollars , Very High Dollars , It goes to the million dollar mark very quickly . . I did my best to keep your installation below 1 million dollars. Tv reception is not magic , it takes real equipment and real thought and real action.

[John Candle]

I did my best to provide understanding and make it Simple. There is no bull**** here , it's the cold hard Simple Facts. When you get your self tangled up in the lasso and the bull runs away , Well.

[bbarr]

John, I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise with me. That is why I am here. And at this point, I’m trying to figure out all my options. I may not be able to use the large antenna you suggested. Left up to me, I would most likely go with your recommendations.

Eventually, with further guidance from TV Fools, I will figure this out and also find out any constraints I may have within my neighborhood community.

If I said something that offended you, I apologize. That was not my intentions. I value your input.

[John Candle]

"" constraints I may have within my neighborhood community."" As has been provided many times before in these question and answer sessions , here is the truth about installing Tv antennas and other antennas. The truth is Yes you can install and use Tv antennas and other antennas and no you can not be prevented or delayed from installing Tv antennas or other antennas. This is Setteled Federal Law. This had to be Nation Wide Federal Law because there are many crazy people in the world in this time period of human history that seek to prevent you from having a Tv antenna or other antennas. Think clearly about this situtation , This is a Tv antenna it is not evil. Think about it , what does this say about humans that hate Tv antennas !! and do not be fooled by their talk . Tv antennas are made of aluminum and plastic , any one that does not like aluminum and plastic is plain nut's. http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

[John Candle]

I am not offened or angry. It's that this insanity is repeated over and over , over , over , over and over again , it wears me down that the humans are ________________________________________________________.

[John Candle]

Here are contacts for Tv antenna installers. This contact information is for ANY ONE that is looking for a Tv antenna installer and coax wiring for watching Tv. In the google search box type in ----> structured wiring 'your city and state'. If the city where you live in is small and there is no listing then select a Larger city close to where you live. Here is a example----> structured wiring oklahoma city oklahoma.<---- This is an example of what to do , I am not telling you to type in oklahoma city oklahoma. . Also you can go to this web site----> zipinstalation.com