Finding Appropriate Outdoor Antenna

[Yaguy]

Hi Everyone

I read a few answers to posts and I can see there are some very knowledgeable people here.

I'm in West Vancouver, BC, Canada. My elevation is 200 feet above sea level. I currently have a chimney mounted Vee Type VHF/UHF 39 Element Antenna on a rotator (35' height), similar to betwen a Channel Master 3018 and CM-3020. It might be from Antennacraft. It is not on any amp. I bought it at Radio Shack 18 years ago. Channel 6, non digital, is getting interferred with from FM radio stations in Vancouver- can hear the audio and the picture is affected too. I know the FM radio band is right there between VHF 6 and 7. I do think that it could also be the coax is degrading, as I happened to use RG59 that the cable company had put on the house, before I learned that it typically isn't as well shielded as RG6. The run is about 50' - 60'.

VHF channels 2 and 8 are very clear and strong. Channel 10 has slight ghosting, great sound; UHF-wise channel 32 is usually very clear and 17, 26, have some light snow, which is weather dependant. Channel 42 might be lower power, but usually is weaker. I did receive VHF Channel 12 KVOS in Bellingham clearly and KBCB, UHF 24, before the digital transition. Also did on occasion have KOMO 4 and KING 5 in Seattle come in. And when the antenna was new, during two summers on a very hot day, KEYT-3 in Santa Barbara, California, 1035 miles away! - That's why OTA is fun. :)

I'm on the same side of a mountain as the transmittor 10 miles northeast of me, and about 48 miles from KVOS-DT in the US.

My UHF part of the antenna has 5 elements on each dipole 'wing' and 12 directors and 1 driven element on the Yagi part. I think it was rated, when new, for UHF 45 miles.

So there's some distance to the US, and locally I'm about 10 miles from a transmittor on Mt. Seymour, and 38 miles from CHEK 6 on Saturna Island, due south of me, and somewhere in between for CKVU 10 in Vancouver.

My TV fool report is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dda326b38cf6c52

What setups or antennas should best work with me? I know that Corner reflector Yagis are currently optimized for channel 69. And that channels 52 to 69 are going to be reassigned; so should I wait until Winegard and Channel Master optimize a new one for Channel 51, for an overall better gain for me in the channels I'll be watching, or look at a Bowtie type 4 or 8 bay?

I really would like to try a digital converter box before I pull down the old antenna which isn't in bad shape, and doesn't have rust. But locally there isn't much in the way of quality or really much of any digital converter boxes yet, as our digital transition is to take place Aug 31, 2011 and cable penetration is much deeper in Canada, with only 2.8% people in my area using OTA.

Thanks.

[Dave Loudin]

You need to post you question in the right thread at digitalhome.ca (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=129). Canada will be switching to digital broadcasting in 2011, and that site is keeping the closest eye on the situation. You will probably find someone in the same situation as you.

[Tower Guy]

I'm in West Vancouver, BC, Canada.

Thanks.

The TV fool report is for someone else.

[John Candle]

Your tvfool report is in Florida. Please repost the tvfool report. Yes I will help you with your reception situation. Canada is changing to Digital Now. And is transmitting Digital Tv Now. Full Power transmitters in Canadas Major Cities are to have completed the change to digital sometime in 2011. The rest of the analog transmitters in the major cities and through out Canada may not change for a long time , due to lack of funding. http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/105462 , , , , http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/home-accueil.htm

[John Candle]

If you provide the correct tvfool report I can help you with your tv reception

[Yaguy]

Thanks. I'm not sure why my tv fool report pasted in as Florida. I'll try again here.

I appreciate the advice.

TV signal analysis results for my West Vancouver, BC location, including stations and antenna position:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dda324215c550a1

Thanks again.

[John Candle]

If your house is not wrapped with any type or kind of metal such as but not limited to metal siding or stusko with stucko Wire and if the roof is not metal and if the walls are not poured concrete. Then the stations in the direction of 64 degrees magnetic compass will be received with a Simple Not Amplified indoor tv antenna directed to the east. And with a second antenna directed to the south it is highly likely that the stations to the south , the Canada stations 6 and 10 and stations KVOS 35 , KBCB 19 , K24IC 24 will be received with a Simple Not Amplified indoor tv antenna. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=233 http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html , if the two simple indoor antennas receive Ok , then two simple indoor antennas at the tv location can be connected to a remote control A/B switch due to the fact that the two simple antennas will be directed in different directions one to the east and one to the south. You might be able to receive the channels to the east and south with one simple indoor antenna if you can get it turned just right. If the simple indoor antenna that is directed to the south does not receive the 3 american channels then you will need to install a out side antenna like one of these. Channelmaster 3016 or Winegard 7082P or Antennacraft HD 850 . Also read and understand this about Real and Virtual Digital Tv Channels. http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=695

[John Candle]

The other American stations to the south are out of reach. Here is inflammation about Canada tv transition http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/105462 , http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/home-accueil.html

[Yaguy]

Thanks John Candle

I have read about the 'virtual' PSIP stream numbers that appear on the digital to analogue converter boxes, whereas the real UHF channel they're broadcasting on is usually quite different. I was checking what all the local and ones within reach of me are, and what signal strength the station is transmitting in helping to determine an antenna as well. (Plus some could be "reassigned" to high VHF, so I guess I'll still hold on to my old antenna for now- it's like the CM-3020 but less on the UHF side.) I did figure that the local stations and KBCB and KVOS in Bellingham were something I could still receive. I don't know if tropospheric bounce phenomena can be expected with UHF in summer.

I'm just waiting for there to be more availability of Digital Converter Boxes up here, as of right now there isn't much and they're significantly more expensive than the same cheap ones in the US.

I had not thought about an indoor antenna again. What about the CM-4221HD, CM-4228HD, or the Winegard 9032 for UHF. The Antennacraft U8000 looks a bit more flimsy than the CM-4228HD. What's your opinion on these or the HBU Antennacraft line?

From what I read earlier, the CRTC in Canada doesn't think a coupon for converter box program is needed and is leaving it up to the Federal Government to make that decision.

[John Candle]

Using a Outdoor antenna 'indoors' will receive better then a simple rods and loop indoor antenna. The outdoor antennas you have listed have a narrower beam width. The a simple rods and loop has a Very Wide beam width. Beam width is the angles off to the sides of the antenna that the signal will be received. Half power beam width of the left and right sides angles means that the antenna will be receiving half the power as in front of the antenna. And the more the angle becomes away from front center the less signal will be received. UHF antennas metal receiving elements are sized in length to receive UHF. UHF antennas will receive VHF , however at reduced reception. That ok if the VHF signals are strong however if the VHF signals are weak , a UHF antenna will not receive is not the correct antenna . In this transition time when the Tv stations are finding out what Real channel will be transmitting on , I like to recommend All channel antennas.

[John Candle]

The four American channels listed are LOS Line Of Sight , moderetly strong and easy to receive. The other American Channels on down the line are Very weak. 0 NM(dB) is the 'reference number' for reliable reception with a simple 2 element dipole 30 feet in the air. Plus 10 NM(dB) gives some elbow room and more then that is better and better. Minus 10 NM(dB) is the point at which the signal is said to be not receivable with out extreme measures. You can go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool and see how high the antenna will have to be to Pull Up the other American stations NM (dB) numbers. And will also need a extreme fringe antenna such as Winegard HD 7084P. And Yes it is fun to get the very weak Tv stations coming in on the skip or tropo. Digitalhome may have DX'ers , D = Distance , X = Unknown , you can be involved with. And here is a web site http://www.wtfda.org

[Yaguy]

Thanks John Candle

I'll check out those things. I have always liked the bigger deep fringe antennas. I think their sheer size helps them. I will see how high up I would have to have the antenna to get some of those more distant channels. I think the best thing for now is to run some new high quality RG6 and maybe a new balun on the antenna as well, because the weather boot did come off for a while and is cracked. I have heard of people both taping it with special "self-vulcanizing rubber tape" and also using roofing tar to seal it from the elements. I wondered if using plumbers tape on the connector threads would help as well.

Thanks again for the good info.

[John Candle]

Do Not put plumbers tape on the connector threads. The best use on the outside of the connector is the self sealing live rubber tape. It seals to it's self and what it is applied to , it works so good that the only way to remove it is to cut it off. Here are some examples of amalgamating tape http://www.surplussales.com/Antennas/Antennas-7.html . Electrical supply business sell the self sealing tapes. With it taped a weather boot is not needed. The coax the connector the matching transformer and the matching transformer wire leads that connect to the antenna can be incased with this tape. Always look inside the connector on the end of the coax to see if the shield and shield wires are pushed in toward the center conductor wire , if so push away from center conductor wire.

[Yaguy]

Thanks John Candle

That self-amalgamating tape looks like what I need. (I had thought about hockey tape over electrical tape, if I couldn't get self-amalgamating.) I'd rather use tape than roofing tar. I have to wait a bit to get on the roof. It's been raining for the past week and supposed to freeze in a couple days.

Do you think I should get prefabricated RG6 coax that I might end up with a few extra feet, or have a professional crimp it to length for me with the proper weather proof f-connectors and weather boots? I'd love to have the professional type stripper, crimping tools, but to just do a bit every 15 years doesn't really warrant it. Thanks for the links.

[Yaguy]

Hi John Candle

Where do I go or click to find this on my TV Fool report:

"You can go to the >>Start MAPS<< part of tvfool and see how high the antenna will have to be to Pull Up the other American stations NM (dB) numbers."

I might have just missed where it is.

Thanks.

[Yaguy]

Does anyone have experience with using an antenna like the Antennacraft MXU59 vs. say a 4 bay Antenna like the Antennacraft U4000? The manufacturer's gain figures for the MXU59 is a conservative 10.7dbd and the U4000 is rated at 10dbd. I have a rotator so I could move it easily. I hear a lot about the Channel Master 4221 4 bay, but very little about the American made Antennacraft U4000. I would believe that the corner reflector Yagi MXU59 would stand up to the elements and birds better over time than the 4 bay U-4000.

Because digital transmissions typically use lower power than analogue, post transition would it be possible to use a preamp even if some stations are only 10 miles away N/E, as some, in the opposing direction, are around 40-50 miles South. It's just now while there's still analogue VHF, I know that two stations, VHF 2 and 8, would overload my tuner if they were amplified.

Thanks.

[Dave Loudin]

Please read the signal analysis FAQ that's linked to at the top of your report. Your report accounts for power levels among other things.

You need to consult with the OTA forum at digitalhome.ca before you buy anything.

[Yaguy]

This is where I should have put it.

My TV fool Report is posted in this thread and is:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dda324215c550a1

Analogue Channel 2 is quite strong and clear: -10.4 dBm
Analogue Channel 32 is picture and sound perfect
Analogue Channel 8 is also near perfect, only slight occasional ghosting

The digital channels are weaker in the sense that they are broadcast at much lower power but many from the exact same location only 9 to 10 miles away. But what I've noticed in connecting my first Digital to Analogue Converter Box, a Zinwell ZAT-970A, is that there is a noticeable and distracting series of evenly spaced diagonal lines oriented at about 60 degrees, spaced about 1" apart, going from the left of the screen to the right on all digital channels. There is sometimes a slight hint of the same type of interference-type lines but tighter together and much fainter, only on Analogue VHF Channel 2. Rooftop antenna is made by Antennacraft: VHF/UHF/FM sold by Radio Shack as RS VU-160XR with Antennacraft Rotator.
Thanks for your ideas. :)

[John Candle]

The digital channels at your location are Strong not weak. You are saying that the interference lines are with both analog and digital , this is telling me to look for interference generators at your location. ANY electrical or electronic device can be interference generators. Lights of all types and kinds , motors , computers , Tv's , radios , washing machine , dryer , electric tooth brush charger , electric fence charger , door bell transformer , are you getting the idea--> ANY electrical or electronic device. The best way to find it or them is unpluging and unpluging and unpluging every thing inside the house and out side the house.

[John Candle]

You could have a defective converter box or a Defective Tv , Might be bad coax ( Any piece or part of coax ) and or bad matching transformer. Is the coax grounded with a coax grounding block ??

[GroundUrMast]

The ZAT970 can connect to your TV with RCA Video/L/R cable(s). If your TV has the inputs for that type connection, you should expect a slightly better quality signal when viewing digital sources. You could leave the coax connected between the ZAT970 and the TV to support analog reception, but it needs to be in serviceable condition.

JC is correct to wonder if there is a problem with the coax between the ZAT970 and TV. Poor shielding (caused by a faulty connector for example) may allow the strong RF in your area to interfere. Use of the V/L/R connection would eliminate the RF link between the ZAT970 and your TV, thus eliminating a complex process that may be interfered with.

[Yaguy]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I did try running the Zinwell ZAT-970A D2A converter box from it's RCA outputs directly to Input Video 1 on my TV, and voilÃ*, no interference at all. It seems that the Toshiba DVD/VCR introduces some noise during its input > output route; so by running directly to the TV (Video 1) and the DVD/VCR to Video 2 on the TV, and the Ouput on the TV back to L1 on the VCR, I can watch clear TV and still record it, and use pass-through for the next 5 months. Of note, even pointed at Mt. Seymour N/E direction, I can easily get KBCB and KVOS to the South with the side lobes of my 20 year old Antennacraft "RS VU-160XR VHF/UHF/FM" antenna- they're about 48 miles away in Bellingham, WA.

I put in a new piece of copper RG6 from the Converter box to TV, for analogue pass-through, replacing the push-on patch one used from the VCR to TV, which wasn't copper, or very thick. I should run new RG6 from the antenna to the grounding block, because it is old, but it does look to be in good shape.

And again, thanks for the friendly advice and good suggestions. :)

[GroundUrMast]

...I can easily get KBCB and KVOS to the South with the side lobes of my 20 year old Antennacraft "RS VU-160XR VHF/UHF/FM" antenna- they're about 48 miles away in Bellingham, WA... And again, thanks for the friendly advice and good suggestions. :)
KVOS is a treat... lots of stuff no one else will carry. I get it on the back side of one of my antennas too. :)

Glad to hear of your success.

[Yaguy]

I have discovered that my outdoor antenna is an RS VU-160XR. An Antennacraft VHF/FM/UHF made for Radio Shack. I see that the wing nuts look rusted for the balun connection but the feed lines on top look pretty clean. Strangely, it doesn't pick up K24IC-D which is close to KVOS that I easily pick up, but K24IC-D is at -54.9dB vs. KVOS -41.4dB. I'm wondering if this is the current limit for my reception, -41dB.

Has anyone used this antenna in the past and what are their opinions? It looks to be in pretty shape, just one VHF element near the front came a bit loose so I secured it. I was thinking of maybe getting an Antennacraft U8000 because all of my post transition stations are UHF, but I haven't heard of many people using it.

I was also thinking because I have my VU-160XR on a rotator that I could use the U8000 on that or have a fixed mast with a 4 bay pointing to my 63-65 degree transmitters and one 4 bay, or an 8 bay, pointed towards the 145 to 160 degree stations to the south.

My TV Fool report again is:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dda324215c550a1

Thanks again. :)

[GroundUrMast]

K24IC is a translator for KBTC a PBS affiliate. They carry three virtual channels , PBS in HD, MHz, and TVW a State government information channel.

A 4-bay panel should have no trouble with the three US stations 47 miles south of you. An 8-bay will offer gain you don't need and a narrow forward beam, which is also going to work against you. You might get lucky with a 4-bay and find a compromise aim point that lets you watch all channels but I won't be surprised if you need a rotator or a two antenna system.

The RS VU-160 should have been quite capable also. It sounds like it has problems though. The attached file indicates UHF gain similar to what you would expect from a 4-bay panel.

I see KVOS has started to carry 'ME' network programing instead of local production and locally selected syndicated oldies.

[Yaguy]

Thanks GroundUrMast

I think my antenna could benefit from newer outdoor RG6 and a balun. The nice thing about the VU-160XR is that you can have it pointed at Mt. Seymour, 64 degrees, and the side lobes pick up KVOS at about 145 degrees. You're probably quite right that a big, heavy 8 bay isn't going to be as useful in my situation as a quality 4 bay. I had been looking at an 91XG but there seems to be differing opinions as to what it's beam width is. My current Antennacraft 160XR lists a 30 degree beam width, but I think that takes into account the VHF because I have found the corner reflector yagi part is much more directional with the digital channels.

[No static at all]

I had been looking at an 91XG but there seems to be differing opinions as to what it's beam width is.I'm seeing about a 30-35° beam width on my 2 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36213047389ee%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d40)weakest channels (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36213047389ee%26t%3dALLTV%26n%3d35) according to the TV Fool report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3da36213047389ee). The 91-XG is hard to beat for picking up weaker channels when surrounded by powerful locals.

[GroundUrMast]

My personal experience with the XG91 is that it has a relatively narrow forward beam. Don't count on a lucky side lobe, it's inherently very directional. I'm using mine to deal with some tough 2-edge weak signals while being hit hard by strong locals. My XG91 terminates in one of several network attached tuners so I don't have to deal with a rotator or A/B switch.

[Yaguy]

Thanks No Static at all and GroundUrMast

How weak a powered signal can say a combo antenna like an RS VU-160XR be able to pick up without a preamp? Right now, I'm having difficulty with stations below -41 to -45dB. I'm running about 50' of coax to the grounding block outside, another 10' to the 2-way splitter inside, then 15' to the basement TV, and about 25' to the upstairs one. Total: 100'

Can the 300 Ohm to 75 Ohm balun on the antenna go bad over time? It's the stock one that came with the Antennacraft antenna. Age: 20 years.

I'm trying to sleuth my way through it all. :)

[Yaguy]

I am on the side of a mountain and the 2 local transmitting towers are about 10 miles east on the mountain, about 1500' further up, so there is the real possibility of multipath- trees, buildings, varying topography. (Analogue does have some 'ghosting' issues that the rotator usually mostly cures.) Would that preclude the Channel Master 4221HD because it has a wide 45° receiving beamwidth? And, of the newer outdoor antennas, which ones would be best for local 9 to 10 mile reception on the leeward side of a mountain and yet still be good for Bellingham, WA, 48 miles south of me. For me, it looks like almost all the stations I will receive will be UHF.
Thanks.

[Yaguy]

When would the 91XG be specifically recommended over vs. say the Channel Master 4221HD? I can accomodate either one on the roof, and I have a rotator that works. I suppose my concern is that the 91XG just looks a bit lighter in build quality, but I've read a lot of happy people using it to pull in both local and distant signals. - I could get a few local ones with an indoor antenna, but I like to sometimes try to get the further ones- it's fun. A local store has the Channel Master 4221/4228HD's but not the 91XG- or any other Antennas Direct products. Thanks. :)

[GroundUrMast]

Thanks No Static at all and GroundUrMast

How weak a powered signal can say a combo antenna like an RS VU-160XR be able to pick up without a preamp? Right now, I'm having difficulty with stations below -41 to -45dB. I'm running about 50' of coax to the grounding block outside, another 10' to the 2-way splitter inside, then 15' to the basement TV, and about 25' to the upstairs one. Total: 100'

Can the 300 Ohm to 75 Ohm balun on the antenna go bad over time? It's the stock one that came with the Antennacraft antenna. Age: 20 years.

I'm trying to sleuth my way through it all. :) A good quality receiver should be seeing signals at predicted levels in the -60 dBm range (and even lower).

Coax and balun left in the weather for 20 years are ready for some R&R. Yes, they can go bad.

A 4-bay panel antenna (such as the 4221) will have moderate gain and directivity. More gain than you need, and I expect, more than enough directivity (unless you have neighbors who have proven the presence of difficult multi-path interference.

An XG-91 is most often used when dealing with weak (-70 dBm down to -90 or so). The XG-91 is occasionally needed when there is a problem with multi-path, adjacent or co-channel interference. I see none of these in your situation.

All that said, you can hope for an aim point that receives all channels simultaneously but don't bet on it. If your rotator works, you should have no trouble seeing real channels 19, 24 and 35 from Mt. Constitution (Orcas Island, WA) when the antenna faces that direction.

[John Candle]

I know that you know that the American stations that are in the gray and are very weak signal strength are not all UHF stations. Like KCPQ-DT 13 Fox and KSTC-DT 11 The CW and others. You can use the all channel antenna you have to go after the very weak American stations or you can install a Winegard HD7698P antyenna , http://www.canadapost.ca/shopper/items/3621945/WINEGARD-HDTV-HIGH-BAND-HD7698P?local=en . There are TV DX web sites on the internet , and you can entertain us with how you received KSTP-DT 11 FOX for 3 hours with no dropouts and signal strength meter was at 90% and signal quality meter was at 80%.

[John Candle]

Here is more inflammation about Canada digital and analog Tv , http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations , http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/117022 , http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/105426 , http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum , http://www.saveandreplay.com , http://www.trentondistributors.com , http://www.friends.ca , http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/home-accueil.htm , http://www.kijiji.ca is a interesting Canada web site that has sellers with new and used Tv antennas and other Tv related stuff.

[Yaguy]

Thanks GoundUrMast and John Candle

Very good and helpful information.

I suspect I should buckle down and redo the whole antenna setup and hope it lasts as long. I think there could be water getting in the cable or balun area, as after a rain the VHF, particulary VHF 2 (CBUT), has prounounced diagonal lines and the colours seem too bright- almost like when one could manually fine tune a signal on their tv and it was just a little off in one direction. But the next day it's fine. Oddly, this 'water effect' has no effect on the digital channels. It would be nice to get the odd grey area channel. And I would announce here if I did. - Thanks again.

[John Candle]

The digital signal has built in information that corrects reception problems up to a certain point.

[John Candle]

As you already know by searching the internet. Here are some but not all DX websites that you can get involved in. Entertainment and knowledge to keep you going and thinking. http://www.frontiernet.net/~jadale/TVFM%20Dxing.htm , http://www.dxfm.com , http://www.wtfda.org , http://www.dxing.com/tvfmdx.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_and_FM_DX , http://www.otacanada.com/cgi-bin/ota_forum.pl , http://www.w9wi.com

[Yaguy]

I just thought of this. What about the small grounding block? Do these have a limited lifespan? If so, about how long? I bought mine at Radioshack when I installed everything. I don't think water is getting into it. And I did tape it, but with electrical tape that has stuck on pretty well to this day.
If I put on a new one, I would have it in a weather-proof box, even though it doesn't get rain on it, where it is tight to the house, on the north side.

[Yaguy]

Can two 10' mast sections (without the tapered end) be combined by other means? I thought that U-Bolts and clamps over a 1' or so overlap area would be sufficient if the lower 12' is below my porch roofline, but there could be a better and safer way, so I'm asking. - There has to be a good way of doing this, short of making a small tower.

[GroundUrMast]

Lacking the swedged ends implies that the material may not be TV antenna mast. What material are you using? Without precise dimensions it's hard to offer any helpful advise.

[John Candle]

Put the pipes side by side , drill holes thru both pipes and put bolts through. Also the places that put up the fences around construction sites , have the swedging equipment , will likley swedge the pipes for free if you ask.

[Yaguy]

Thanks GroundUrMast and John Candle

It's 1.5" antenna mast steel pipe that was cut at one time so now the top end that tapered down isn't there. It's interesting that the pipe diameter can be altered mechanically after it's already formed. Thanks.

[bwilson]

Radio Shack Colorstar c490 ($100) with amp system(cat.#15-259) F.M. trapper ($50)

[John Candle]

I suspect that bwilson has put the information on the wrong post. The same information is also on davidhales question asking post.

[Yaguy]

I'm wondering if anyone has experience with distribution amps. Mine, a 4-way from Radio Shack, wasn't used very much because, in the past, analogue channel 2 was too strong, but now with the digital channels, most are lower power, in the 20kW to 30kW range- one is to be 103kW- would it be good to try the distribution amp again? An overly strong signal won't damage the converter boxes? When I did have it hooked up I got decent summer tropo, once getting KEYT analogue 3 in Santa Barbara, CA, 1000 miles south of me.

The coaxial run to the distribution amp is 68', then 25' to one tv and about 20' to another tv.

[No static at all]

It's worth a try. I tried an old 4 way RS distribution amp with stronger digital signals (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9e7406dfb2feb9)& it worked well. No overload & delivered an excellent signal to all 4 sets. The amp is about 50-60 feet from the antenna.

[GroundUrMast]

You won't harm the tuner in your TV or STB.

Often Radio Shack, like many retailers, offered little in the way of technically accurate specifications.When selecting an amplifier, you need to know gain, bandwidth, noise figure and maximum signal capacity. The last two specs are often omitted in advertising material and may not be published in any other form.

The bottom line is, try it... if signal quality gets worse but you truly need an amplifier, post the most current TVFR for your location. We need to see what the rather dynamic signal conditions are like before we could recommend a preamp or DA.

(I can still see CBUT, real channel 2 here in Seattle so expect the powerful CH-2 signal to cause trouble with your amp. It can't tell the difference between analog and digital.)

[Yaguy]

Thanks No static at all, and GroundUrMast

Wow CBC analogue 2 in Seattle. (It turns off Aug 31st.) CBUT '2' digital will switch from current UHF 58 to UHF 43 and power will go from 30.5kW to 103.3kW. I used to pick up KOMO 4 analogue with snow pretty much all the time in West Vancouver and it was more clear in the summer. It's strange because Canada, in our digital transition, has entered into agreements with the US that our OTA signals won't be anywhere near the power of some in the US. An effort to minimize signal spillover. In some cases, people who can't have an outdoor antenna in Vancouver might not be able to get all the local channels if they use an indoor antenna. The following shows the current allotted and pending channels: digital and analogue.

http://www.user.dccnet.com/jonleblanc/Canada_TV_Stations/BC.html

I've not had any luck with digital tropo, so I was going to see if tyring the distribution amp worked at all in keeping the signal 'up a bit'. But with digital it might be a little tricky and hopefully the noise of the distribution amp won't be too high, because that's something that Radio Shack never listed in the past.
An odd thing is that having the antenna on the chimney, 40' above ground, has not helped in any noticeable gain improvement, as opposed to previously having it 20' off the ground by my back porch.
But back then it was mainly for VHF. UHF might be different. I'd prefer not to have it on the chimney, as it's more difficult to get up there and I don't like the coax on the asphalt shingles (though it is on the northwest side of the house). It has stood up well, but the brown, flat 3-wire rotator cable looks a bit like a snake losing its skin.

[Yaguy]

I tried my 4-way distribution amp and it didn't make much difference, save for the stronger channels showing up between 10% to 15% stronger in positions where normally they'd be less. But overall it wasn't that significant.

What I did notice was that when I took off the coaxial f-connectors from the splitter, I felt an electrical current go from possibly the copper inner conductor, the f-connector then into my hand. Now I know there's a small current (milliamp?) from the antenna, but to 'feel' it noticeably, where could that current be coming from?

[GroundUrMast]

Several possibilities...

A fault in the amplifier or TV power supply.

Does the coax run close to a power line? If so, it could be coupled via induction.

A volt-ohm meter would be a useful tool to track down the source

Is the coax shield grounded?

[Yaguy]

Thanks GroundUrMast

I don't use an amplifier or preamp. The condition is similar to once having a Toshiba DVD/VCR combo and touching the metal housing I could feel a small electrical current passing from the metal to my hand. I don't know if it could be voltage leaking from either a DVD/VCR, a TV, or maybe there is some inductance from the flat rotor cable on the roof which is taped to the RG59 Belden 9104 DUOBOND II coaxial cable that runs to the house. The coax doesn't touch any power lines though.

What does "shield grounded" mean?

Thanks.

[GroundUrMast]

The shield portion of the coax should be connected to ground, for safety and some say, reduction of interference (the latter could be the subject of a rather pointless discussion, because the protection from static discharge damage to your tuner seems enough reason to ground the coax shield, IMO).

A ground block (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=GRB1&d=Single-Grounding-Block---One-RG-6-Cable) is used to make that connection, it should connect to your electrical service ground through a fairly short #10 copper wire.

http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?t=901

[Yaguy]

Thanks again, GroundUrMast

I currently do have the coaxial cable connected to a grounding block outside, and a copper ground wire about 20" long runs directly down to a metal stake in the ground. It's the same stake the cable company used. Perhaps a new grounding block would help, as it's the same one I put in 20 years ago.

Where the electrical meter is there is no stake outside. The house wiring is mostly "knob and tube," but in superb shape- with no additions of aluminum- so originally the electrical sockets were 2-prong and now many have been replaced with the ones with the ground socket- it was an electrician that did it so I don't know how he grounded it. The electrical ground in my house may in fact be to the plumbing inside.

[GroundUrMast]

Unless there is water damage, corrosion or physical damage to the existing ground block, I would expect to never need to replace it.

Your suspicion about the TV or DVR would be worth investigating.

[Yaguy]

Has anyone heard of or used the American made brand "Remee" RG6 coaxial cable for their antenna? I saw it and wondered how it stacked up against better known brands like Belden. Thanks.

[Yaguy]

What are classic symptoms that the coax has either water getting into a connector or a small crack in the outer jacket? I used to notice, after a rain, that analogue VHF 2 would have colour issues- like it was washed out or too bright. Just as if when one could fine tune the channel with the dial inside the speaker panel on the old 1980's Sony Trinitrons, and it was slightly off.
I currently have this cable that has done well over the years, and, despite it being RG59, the specifications numbers look pretty good, compared to a lot of RG6.
http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/9104.pdf

What do the experts think about this particular RG59 coaxial cable from the specs above for OTA use?

[Billiam]

Go with RG 6 and preferably a Quad Shield cable at that.

[GroundUrMast]

Symptoms of water in the coax or connector: Intermittent reception interruption on digital signals, ghosting that changes on analog signals.

From a practical point of view, testing consists of substituting a known good cable. The lab grade test gear needed to check the cable in place, is tens of thousands of dollars.

The specs for Belden 9104 are close to RG-6. But, a variation of tenths of a dB are irrelevant in a real application. I have yet to have any regret for buying coax at the big box home improvement store.

The antenna let's signal in, so I don't care about the extra shielding of quad. In the case of a satellite system that uses an IF (intermediate frequency) in the same frequency range as terrestrial WiFi and microwave systems, I'll pay extra to keep interference out of a closed system like the link between the dish and sat-receiver.

[Yaguy]

Thanks Billiam and GroundUrMast

Probably not a bad idea to put in the new RG6. Just have to get up on the roof or find a volunteer. Very interesting about the antenna letting in signals, where quad would benefit the higher frequency satellite more closed setup better.

[Yaguy]

Is the new AD DB4e much better than the CM-4221HD? From what I've read, I don't know if it is really worth the extra cost. I know that the CM-4221HD uses nuts that can be tightened, or loosened to do a 'hack', and the new DB4e uses rivets that I've heard can sometimes be slightly loose upon opening the box (recognized factory problem). Right now, I seem to be having pixelation and lock issues with stations below a Noise Margin of +38dB - +36dB. The best I can get is 50% to 65% on those, and that's when pointing directly in their compass direction. I can't see if there is corrosion where the feed lines are riveted to the antenna elements. But the feed lines themselves look quite clean on my AntennaCraft VU-160XR, when looking at it with binoculars.

[Yaguy]

I'm looking at replacing my 23 year old Antennacraft VU-160XR combination VHF/FM/UHF antenna that I've had on my chimney on a rotator. It's been pretty good for all those years. I'd like a good quality one, be it an indoor or outdoor. I don't know if it's possible to get any Seattle stations without causing issues with my close proximity local channels. CBUT-DT UHF 43 is also broadcasting from Mt. Seymour at a higher ERP (103kW) more than all the other green zone local Mt. Seymour channels.
My TV Fool report is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c6fc25e26631

[GroundUrMast]

The local signals are all on UHF channels. You don't need all the gain of the Antennas Direct DB8E, but it's flexible aiming features make it a good choice for reception of the two separate groups of signals, east and south.

Trying for reception of the Seattle market is not completely impossible, but I think the best you can hope for is intermittent reception that's dependent on variable atmospheric conditions. If you want to try, consider the basic DX combination of an Antennas Direct 91XG + Antennacraft Y10713 + RCA TVPRAMP1R. I'd keep the local and DX antenna systems separate.

[teleview]

+=>

The Current Tvfool report.

The Digital Current Plus Pending Applications Included Channel List and Radar Report , the Green and Yellow Reception Zones Show that the Channels are All UHF Channels.

Install a Antennas Direct , DB8e , UHF Channels Antenna in such a manner that reception is not , obstructed , impeded , blocked , by the Roof and Building in the directions of , East North East , South East , South West , West.

Aim 1 panel of the DB8e antenna at about 65 degree magnetic compass direction.

Aim the other panel of the DB8e antenna at about 146 degree magnetic compass direction.

Here is how to aim antennas , http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html.

Use a Real and Actual magnetic compass to aim antenna , do not trust a , cell phone , tablet and etc. compass.

--------------

A antenna system amplifier is not required.

--------------

Here are some places to buy antennas and etc. .

http://www.tdlcanada.ca.

http://www.saveandreplay.com.

http://www.epvision.com.

[Yaguy]

Thanks GroundUrMast

Separate systems for local and dx sounds like a good idea. I've seen some cheap looking 8-bays, but I'd want to stick with a known manufacturer. I could try the 91XG on a rotator, but I think I might have to be turning it a lot.
Right now, I'm getting intermittent pixelation and breakups even on nearby locals and I was thinking there might be breaks in the coax going down the roof on the shingles.
Although I'd lose some height, I was considering putting the antenna on the two 10' poles at the side of my house instead of the chimney. It would save about 35' of coax and the associated signal loss.

[GroundUrMast]

If in doubt, replace the coax.

FWIW, 35' of coax is not going to produce more than 1.5 to 2 dB of loss. I'd bet the added height is worth more than that in terms of net signal to noise. However, you may want to experiment with several mounting locations. Focus on signal quality, not just strength. Your TVFR suggests you have little need to be concerned about the strength of the local signals.

Consider the analogy of water... Polluted, dirty water is no more fit to drink when delivered at high pressure and volume than when it drips slowly from the tap. I'll take a slow stream of clean water if that's all that can be had. If you place the antenna where it can receive the cleanest signal, then deal with getting the signal to the TV, your opportunity for reliable reception will be better.

[Yaguy]

I've been wondering if there is a recommended well performing indoor antenna for my situation. It would be nice to dx and get Seattle, but, apart from a separate setup, are there smaller, even good indoor antennas that should get my green area channels?
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3de1c660c8a8f2d6